General upscaler thread

[Greg2600]

On 5/2/2022 at 9:22 PM, NeonSpaceBeagle said:

just how different is the updates from the stuff you get on it when you buy it?  also is the new format and features complicated?  are the new scanlines good?  I was kind of shocked how much I enjoy and like the scanlines on the rt5. 

Honestly the only thing I notice are OSD (on screen menu) changes!  I couldn't tell you if lag, sharpness, whatever improves, just don't see the differences.  What I do notice are ghosting and muddiness which are not the fault of the upscaler usually the console itself.

[newtmonkey]

I haven't been keeping up on the news lately, but apparently the RetroTINK-5X Pro has been updated to support HDR on compatible displays.  The first revision was not optimized and needed a lot of tweeking, apparently, but Mike Chi was able to apply color correction on the latest revision so color/gamma doesn't "need" to be tweaked.

 

I updated my RT5x to give this a try.  Updating wipes all profiles, but it's not a huge deal on the RT5x imo, since there aren't as many options that need to be tweaked compared with, say, the OSSC.  Still, it's a but annoying, but I keep an Excel spreadsheet with all my profiles written out, so it's pretty quick to get everything back to where it should be.

 

There are two HDR modes: HDR10 and HLG.  Mike Chi recommends using HDR10 over HLG, and stresses that HDR should really only be used with scanlines (for a better CRT effect).  In my experience, HDR10 is much much more vivid even tweaked properly on the TV, to the point of being somewhat uncomfortable to look at without scanlines enabled.  HLG is subtler but still gives the image a nice "kick."  I'd definitely recommend HDR10 if using scanlines, and HLG if not.

 

I wasn't expecting much from HDR, since the scanline filters already dynamically alter scanline width based on brightness, but I have to admit that I'm impressed.  It goes a long way toward giving the image that CRT "pop" or "glow."  It's hard to explain in words (or pictures even), but anyone who has played any of the more recent consoles that support HDR will know what I'm talking about.

 

Having said that, you will still probably need to do some tweaking to get things looking right.  On my LG OLED, I turned the backlight down to 65, contrast down to 90, color down to 50, color temp all the way to red, and tint a few points toward green (based on calibrating the screen using the Disney WOW BR disc).  On the RT, I switched over to the BVM scanline option, as the other scanline options seemed either too washed out or (ironically) lacking in contrast.  I also adjusted the scanline strength slighly upward, as otherwise scanline blanks completely disappeared from solid white areas.

 

After adjusting all that, I was very pleased with the image.  The improvement is especially notable in shmups; when playing Blazing Lasers, enemies and structures almost popped off the screen against the blackness of space.

Edited September 4, 2022 by newtmonkey

[Ricdeau]

Picked up a RetroTINK 5X Pro this week. Liking what I'm seeing so far. I've only pulled out a small selections of consoles so far, but I'm planning on pulling out my consolized Neo Geo MVS to test out tonight. Looking forward to testing some Playstation and Saturn on there too.

 

I even got a bit silly and hooked up my Super Nt to the Analogue DAC and then ran that through the RetroTINK 5X to see the scanlines. After a bit of tweaking to stabilize the image the result was pretty good.

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

I have to dust off the retrotink 5! I was having so much fun with it at first but then I found a 27 inch CRT which was a size upgrade for my CRT set up.  I'm confused tho.. what would hdr even do to an 8 or a 16 bit image with limited color to begin with?

[turboxray]

3 hours ago, NeonSpaceBeagle said:

I have to dust off the retrotink 5! I was having so much fun with it at first but then I found a 27 inch CRT which was a size upgrade for my CRT set up.  I'm confused tho.. what would hdr even do to an 8 or a 16 bit image with limited color to begin with?

Brightness. You can get to levels of brightness when the flag is enabled in HDMI that enables your LCD/OLED to look close to the 'glow' of a CRT. When you don't have HDR flag setting in the HDMI signal, the TVs limit the range which includes brightness. Without it, you 'white crush' and sacrificing color/details... hence why HDR was invented. You can see some pics of people having CRTs and LCDs side by side showing the glow/brightness being near identical.

[cybercylon]

I now own a retrotink 5x as well. I haven't had a chance to play with it too much. I was having problems with my OSSC for the PS1 and PS2 on my new Sony Bravia, but the 5x works well out of the box. I am still keeping the OSSC for VGA and for my old computer monitor.

 

After upgrading the 5x firmware...there is a lot to mess around with.

 

Way back, the Framemeister was my go to, and it was largely supplanted by the OSSC except for composite and S-Video use.  The 5x seems to do really well with those sources, so is there any reason to keep it anymore?

[Greg2600]

Well OSSC for old stuff you're limited to RGB, doesn't take composite or S-video.  Also, they won't be making any (officially) until next year due to lack of FPGA's.  The GBS-C is an okay alternative because it's cheaper and there's tons of the old GBS8200's laying around. 

[Steven Pendleton]

6 hours ago, cybercylon said:

Way back, the Framemeister was my go to, and it was largely supplanted by the OSSC except for composite and S-Video use.  The 5x seems to do really well with those sources, so is there any reason to keep it anymore?

Framemeister does better with arcade PCBs in my experience.

[+remowilliams]

My retrotink 5x with its general amazingness has supplanted everything at this point and my OSSC has been relegated to sometimes older 15Khz RGB, or VGA.

 

My xrgb-mini has been disconnected from all sources for some time, and has now actually been removed from the area and put into storage.  The xrgb-mini was what initially kicked off my welcome journey away from CRTs, so goodbye to a capable and trusty old friend...

[newtmonkey]

A new FW update was released for the RetroTINK 5X-Pro was released recently (v3.0, 12/23/2022).  It adds a few new features, but the most important are probably:

• You can now name each profile when saving, using an in-menu keyboard.  Works fine, and also doubles as a Confirm/Cancel screen when saving a profile, preventing you from overwriting something by mistake.
• The already infintesimal lag has been reduced further in some resolutions, so that all resolutions are now in effect in the "min-lag" mode from previous FW
• 240p output mode has been brought back - feel free to plug your PS3 into your 13" TV over some kind of HDMI-composite adapter or something

More details:

https://www.retrotink.com/post/retrotink-5x-pro-firmware-updates

 

As always, upgrading the FW wipes out all profiles and effectively resets the device to factory defaults, so make sure to jot down your settings ahead of time.

 

I upgraded soley for the profile naming feature; finally, I could get rid of the post-it note listing my profiles that I had taped to the RT5X remote.

Edited December 28, 2022 by newtmonkey

[newtmonkey]

After a while of playing only PC games, I've been back on consoles recently, and so I've been tweaking my RT5Xp settings.  I must say, this device is really excellent, and my OSSC has been collecting dust lately.  The OSSC is a great device, but the instant res switching, HDR support, and extensive scanline filter options of the RT5Xp really pushes it to the top imo.

 

I have the RT5Xp set to output 1920x1200, for a 5x vertical scale for 240p consoles, and then narrow the aspect ratio slightly (2% in the settings) to get a "perfect" 4:3 image.

 

For scanlines, I just use the standard PVM setting.  I fooled around with a few others, tried some custom settings, but I think the default PVM setting looks the best in most cases.  I do adjust "pre-emphasis" from console to console.  For example, for the SFC (S-Video), I set it to -3 to blur it slightly, because I felt even S-Video to be too sharp looking.

 

Another cool feature on the RT5Xp is the "Standard Def Decoder menu."  You can adjust the brightness, contrast, color, and tint separately for each and every profile.  This isn't so useful for RGB, but for consoles connected using composite or S-Video, these can really help to dial things in just right.

 

After some minor tweaks (brightness, aspect ratio, tint/phase), I have the SFC looking absolutely fantastic!  Between the HDR and scanline filter, games really do look similar to how they look played on my 14" PVM.

 

I'm still not 100% happy with the MD over composite.  MD has notoriously poor composite video quality (it looks just about as bad on my PVM); having said that, I've been tweaking the RT5Xp settings (referring to the test patterns in the 240p test suite) and making progress.  The Y/C Filter makes a HUGE difference in how this system looks over composite video.  "Notch" is much sharper, but introduces the infamous composite color fringing the MD is known for.  "4L" cleans up the fringing nicely, but REALLY blurs the image.  Right now, I am using 4L but set pre-emphasis to +3 to sharpen the image up a bit.  It works okay, but I'm not 100% pleased with the results.  I will continue to tweak this console.

[M-S]

I forgot there was a thread specifically about upscalers, now I think it's better to ask here than the other subforums, which cable brands do you use for RGB/Component setups? The only high quality ones that I know are Retro Gaming Cables and HD Retrovision.

[dudeguy]

20 hours ago, M-S said:

I forgot there was a thread specifically about upscalers, now I think it's better to ask here than the other subforums, which cable brands do you use for RGB/Component setups? The only high quality ones that I know are Retro Gaming Cables and HD Retrovision.

for RGB, I use the "Retro Gaming Cables" one I bought like 10 years ago. Theyre great but i dont see a huge difference between that and S video, so for PS1, SNES, N64, I use official S-video cables, as well as Dreamcast. For Genesis I still use RGB since there was no S video output on that system. For PS2 and GameCube I use official YPbPr cables, and for Xbox I use a third party YPbPr cable.

Edited March 5, 2023 by dudeguy

[newtmonkey]

Retro Access is my vendor of choice for RGB SCART; I've bought several of their cables and every single one has been excellent.

 

I've have mixed experiences with Retro Gaming Cables.  Most of my RGB cables come from them, and most have been grear... just with two BIG exceptions.  First was a SNES/SFC RGB SCART cable marked "TTL csync".  I was advised to never EVER plug it into anything by the developer/manufacturer of the RetroTink5X, because doing so could eventually cause damage. That was a while ago.

More recently, I bought a PSX RGB SCART cable from them that didn't output audio of the left channel.  When I inquired, they asked me to take the cable apart and attach a multimeter and test.  Gotta be honest, that's the last straw for me.  I actually do have a multimeter and could do this, but I shouldn't be required to break the MM out and test something so simple.  I've spent some good money on products from these guys over the years, so you'd think they'd just take my word for it and replace a clearly defective cable.  Anyway, I replaced it with a similar cable from Retro Access, and of course it works fine.

 

More to the point, based on your earlier thread @M-S, there are no cheap reliable sources.  You can gamble on aliexpress or ebay on no-name stuff, but it's not worth it.  I used to get cheap no-name SCART cables because I just figured it's the same as composite/S-Video/component cables, thinking it would either work or not.  SCART is a whole different beast.  Several of the no-name cables I got had the stereo channels swapped; I have basic soldering skills, so I could fix them without an issue.

 

More worryingly, a messed up SCART cable can actually damage your stuff.  I once had a cheap SCART cable destroy one of the inputs on my not-inexpensive SCART switch.  I had another out of spec SCART cable cause all sorts of problems with a passive SCART switch, though fortunately I replaced it before it actually caused permament damage.  It is just not worth saving the money when you consider that a poorly manufactued SCART cable can destroy your other equipment.

 

There's sadly no shortcuts when it comes to SCART.  Save up some money, and stick with the (very) few manufacturers that make truly good (safe) stuff.  Or, stick with component video (which looks about just as good) or S-Video (which looks pretty damned good), which don't any of the risk.

Edited March 5, 2023 by newtmonkey

[M-S]

10 hours ago, dudeguy said:

 For PS2 and GameCube I use official YPbPr cables, and for Xbox I use a third party YPbPr cable.

  By third party you mean unbranded or something like the Monster cables?

7 hours ago, newtmonkey said:

More to the point, based on your earlier thread @M-S, there are no cheap reliable sources.  You can gamble on aliexpress or ebay on no-name stuff, but it's not worth it.  I used to get cheap no-name SCART cables because I just figured it's the same as composite/S-Video/component cables, thinking it would either work or not.  SCART is a whole different beast.  Several of the no-name cables I got had the stereo channels swapped; I have basic soldering skills, so I could fix them without an issue.

 

More worryingly, a messed up SCART cable can actually damage your stuff.  I once had a cheap SCART cable destroy one of the inputs on my not-inexpensive SCART switch.  I had another out of spec SCART cable cause all sorts of problems with a passive SCART switch, though fortunately I replaced it before it actually caused permament damage.  It is just not worth saving the money when you consider that a poorly manufactued SCART cable can destroy your other equipment.

 

There's sadly no shortcuts when it comes to SCART.  Save up some money, and stick with the (very) few manufacturers that make truly good (safe) stuff.  Or, stick with component video (which looks about just as good) or S-Video (which looks pretty damned good), which don't any of the risk.

  I guess maybe I shouldn't risk it with SCART then, as for component, I don't remember official component cables being sold for too much, I think that nowadays they are more expensive because they are hand-made instead of produced in mass scale. I think I should have specified a bit more when I said cheap, I know cables that cost less than 10U$ are terrible, but most of the good cables cost more than 25U$ and I was wondering if there was anything between those prices that was good. There's a brand called Bitfunx that makes good Gamecube cables, but their other cables look just like any unbranded ones out there, I think for now I'll need to buy the more expensive cables until someone comes up with a better solution.

[Austin]

On 3/5/2023 at 11:09 AM, newtmonkey said:

Retro Access is my vendor of choice for RGB SCART; I've bought several of their cables and every single one has been excellent.

 

I've have mixed experiences with Retro Gaming Cables.  Most of my RGB cables come from them, and most have been grear... just with two BIG exceptions.  looks about just as good) or S-Video (which looks pretty damned good), which don't any of the risk.

I ordered my first Retro Access cable and received it a couple weeks ago (Saturn Euro SCART specifically). I am super impressed with it. It feels ridiculously heavy-duty compared to my other cables, which are primarily from Retro Gaming Cables.

 

I have had a few issues with RGC too. Their Saturn RGB cable's pins were super easy to bend and never had a tight fit in the console's connector. It would slip out, I'd try to reinsert it, some pins would bend, I'd bend them back, try to reinsert again and fail. The pins were really brittle overall and they eventually broke, ruining the cable. The Retro Access cable though? The pins feel extremely strong and stable. Popped it in on the first try and it's in there nice and snug.

 

My Genesis 2 cable from RGC also has an issue with its plastic mold on the console connector side. It's way too fat, and so I can't insert the connector fully. I might get a full picture, but one light nudge of the console jiggles the cable a bit and I lose signal or lose certain colors. Sometimes I can't even get a picture because it just isn't possible to get a tight connection. I could technically fix it by shaving the plastic part down, giving it more room to fit into the console's port, but instead I make sure I am using the Model 1 with a Model 1 to Model 2 cable adapter. It's more of an annoyance than anything, but these are hoops I shouldn't be having to jump through. I'll probably grab a Retro Access cable eventually and call it a day. I think over time I'll actually be upgrading all of my cables to theirs.

[dudeguy]

Well as of right now, both my upscalers are not working. both of the just put out vertical colored bars. sound works just fine. tried multiple cables. the systems work when I connect them to my CRTs. Here's the Tink:

[Austin]

This is going to sound dumb, but in your TV's settings, turn on the TV's enhanced video modes (i.e., take it out of Game Mode). It might help with compatibility.

 

Some TVs just don't like the Tink and other doublers or scalers. I experienced a similar problem on my brother's Samsung when I got him the Tink 2X Pro.

[newtmonkey]

Cross-posting this from the "What Have You Been up to Lately with Your Genesis/MD" thread:

 

My recommended settings for Genesis/MD on RetroTINK-5X Pro (composite video)

I know, no one wants to use composite.  However, I do, and maybe one or two other people in the world might want to, also.

 

The Genesis/MD has notoriously awful composite video quality.  This is true whether connected to a CRT or through an upscaler to a flat panel.  The biggest issue is color fringing, which is noise between certain colors that ends up looking sort of like a weird border or artificial sharpness:

(Image taken from Chris Covell's site)

Note the "staircase" effect between the green and yellow on the lamp on the upper left, or the weird artifacts between red and blue (especially noticeable on the robot's left claw held up in the air).

 

I've never been 100% happy with the composite video from the MD, and I'm constantly tweeking my settings.  However, I think I've finally found some settings that look quite good on the RetroTINK-5X Pro:

 

[Standard Definition Decoder]

Y/C Filter: "Notch"

- The 4L settings look a lot smoother at first, but are actually way too blurry and very problematic.  "Adaptive" creates "dancing pixels" between certain colors/patterns, while "Fixed" creates ugly combing artifacts.  "Notch" is sharp, clear, and stable, but makes the composite color fringing very noticeable (ugly)

[Post-Processing]

+Pre-emph: "-5"

- This is how you fix the color fringing. It blurs the image, but not as much as the 4L filter settings.

 

With this, composite on the MD actually looks quite decent.  Not quite up there with the PCE, but pretty close to the quality of FC/SFC composite video, imo.

[dudeguy]

I "fixed" my upscalers by doing a hard reset and also reformatting my Tink. kinda pissed me off cause I lost all my settings. oh well

[Austin]

Glad to hear it wasn't a TV compatibility issue at least, and that things are now working. 👍

[M-S]

 I thought about an idea, but I'm don't know how pratical it would be. I've been hearing some news about upscalers that are going to have HDMI inputs on them. Then I had an idea about something interesting that could be done with them, I think most of you know about those cheap HDMI dongle adapters. They are not very good on their own, but with an upscaler I think they could be as good as using RGB cables (since they use the RGB signals for  digital conversion), there's also the bonus that for HDMI you can almost always use any cables without many problems, maybe it could have some lag, but I'm not a specialist, so I don't know.

 I'd like to hear your opinion about about it and if you know if it would be possible to make it zero lag.

[Austin]

Upscalers only do as good a job as the signal you feed them. If you're using a cheap HDMI converter and routing that into the scaler, it's probably not going to help things at all. Plus the HDMI converter will already be adding some level of input lag, and the upscaler won't remove that. Ideally you want to give a scaler the best, cleanest signal possible, which is why RGB is always recommended where available.

 

Upscaling HDMI signals isn't a new thing either--the Framemeister has two HDMI inputs on it, which is a benefit some other scalers don't have. Running, say, the Xbox 360 into it is certainly a thing. A lot of games on that platform run at 720p or below and so upscaling it to 1080p could be beneficial.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Austin

[M-S]

I know that some adapters like the SNEStoHDMI are very bad, but some like the PS2toHDMI are very good, I guess it depends on the outputs the console has, since if it is RGB you need some extra processing for the image, but if it is YPbPr it already is good to go. If there were some higher quality adapters out there it would work better, but it's not like someone has already made many tests with them.

[Ricdeau]

The scaler market is about to get spicy. Two 4k scalers officially announced in the same week!

 

Introducing the RetroTINK-4K

 

Morph 4K | Pixel FX