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tschak909

Opening a dialogue for SpartaDOS Source Code

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6 minutes ago, ivop said:

Fear of forks is ungrounded IMHO.

In the PC world, maybe. Here I know at least one individual who would love to release an incompatible fork just to create a conflict and get attention.

 

7 minutes ago, ivop said:

1) If the source was available in the first place (after there was no more money made on the binary project), that would have saved a lot of time and effort.

Certainly. But it was also a very exciting adventure, to gradually discover how unusual and how advanced the SDX is as a DOS for Atari.

 

9 minutes ago, ivop said:

2) The current SDX is based on pirated code

If so, then what? The copyright holder is free to sue DLT over that at any time. I would be very interesting lawsuit, I think ;)

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2 minutes ago, drac030 said:

In the PC world, maybe. Here I know at least one individual who would love to release an incompatible fork just to create a conflict and get attention.

I think I know who you mean, but such a fork would die a quick and lonely death. Unless it is proven to be better, and is indeed picked up by the community. Then either the DLT version vanishes, or you merge back the improvements :)

 

2 minutes ago, drac030 said:

Certainly. But it was also a very exciting adventure, to gradually discover how unusual and how advanced the SDX is as a DOS for Atari.

Oh, I can certainly relate to that. Reverse engineering is like being on the Santa Maria and find new land :)

 

2 minutes ago, drac030 said:

If so, then what? The copyright holder is free to sue DLT over that at any time. I would be very interesting lawsuit, I think ;)

Yes, it would, but apparently the copyright holder doesn't give a damn :)

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52 minutes ago, ivop said:

I used to keep everything secret. Nowadays I share everything online. Lots of projects of mine have had others picking it up again and improving. MPlayer/FFmpeg drivers, rkflashtool, both WaveBlaster boards I designed, MIDImuse, multijoy, IDE support for atari800, -pokeyrec for atari800 (both got improved versions in Altirra later), and there's more.

Thank you for inspiring me ;-)

 

Coming soon from an Atari supplier... a somewhat condensed version of your MIDImuse.

SIO2MIDI-S2_top_noS2_1024.JPG

 

I appreciate very much that @ivop chose to release his MIDImuse project into the public domain. Its very nice when someone decides to do this, but not everyone should be expected to do the same. EDIT: The above design will also see a public gerber file release this Fall.

 

As to SDX source code release being discussed in this topic: The original is still owned by FTE. The DLT version was reversed engineered and then greatly improved, and in my opinion the source for that belongs entirely to them. No amount of crying to release is going to force the issue, nor should parties that were entrusted with it be expected to release what was shared with them. Bottom line it really doesn't matter how much someone wants something to be the way they want it to be.

 

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10 minutes ago, mytek said:

the source for that belongs entirely to them

As I understand it as a non-lawyer- although it's a moot point as its seems most unlikely now that FTE would ever in practice assert their property rights- reverse engineering only circumvents copyright if entirely new code is written to duplicate the functional effect of the original with no conscious or unconscious reference to the implementation in the original code.  I don't think this was done with SDX- I understand the DLT versions are modifications, enhancements and evolutions of the original SpartaDos code, and if so probably technically in breach of copyright.

 

But hey-ho, as I say, probably an entirely moot point- except that perhaps those arguing strenuously in favour of respecting FTE's intellectual property at all costs might wonder whether, on reflection, they should uninstall SDX from their systems... 😈 (devil's advocate).

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I personally know from a conversation I had with Mike Hohman (owner of FTE), that he was ok with what DLT had done. So no lawyers need apply.

 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, mytek said:

I personally know from a conversation I had with Mike Hohman (owner of FTE), that he was ok with what DLT had done. So no lawyers need apply.

 

Excellent 👍 My (very mildest of) moral angst is fully resolved 😀

Edited by drpeter
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So, looking at the lifecycle.....

 

11. Late to the party answers/responses/bumps (this can be up to years later).  <- We are here

12. Thread Lock

 

Did we cover the random Commodore bashing, or are we good to proceed?

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3 hours ago, tschak909 said:

My bombast is out of decades of frustration, seeing the same idiotic talking points circled back to, again and again, with absolutely nothing resolved, BECAUSE THOSE WHO COULD RESOLVE IT CHOOSE TO PASSIVELY AGGRESSIVELY CHOOSE NOT TO, or fall back on the flimsiest of cop-outs, such as copyright to someone who literally has been missing in action for decades at this point. There comes a point where I finally have to call bullshit.

 

-Thom

 

You know, if one or two persons disagrees with you, it might be them. If many consistently disagree with you over the years, maybe you need to consider that there's a real thing there rather than that everybody but you is an idiot. I do all my projections consciously, by the way.

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Posted (edited)

I am well aware that I have an unpopular view here. That's okay. I am pushing for this, because it's the right thing to do. Those of you who want to clutch your pearls behind civility can do so.

 

I am being honest with my intentions and how I choose to react to these discussions, which is more than I can say for some of you.

 

and furthermore, I am okay with being bombastic in a position of no leverage. This is the essence of protest, which does not depend on politeness. By posting this, I am deliberately putting myself on record as a protestor to the fact that for decades these idiotic discussions have been taking place, with no action taken.

 

-Thom

 

Edited by tschak909

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9 minutes ago, tschak909 said:

and furthermore, I am okay with being bombastic in a position of no leverage. This is the essence of protest, which does not depend on politeness. By posting this, I am deliberately putting myself on record as a protestor to the fact that for decades these idiotic discussions have been taking place, with no action taken.

So... you're protesting idiotic discussions by perpetuating idiotic discussions? Insert quote about repeating the same behaviour and expecting a different result. For the record: I'm on your side. Hoarding source code as if its only value is in its secrecy is Smaugian. But if the people who have the source code don't want to release it, there's nothing we can do about it. Better to put your efforts into disassembling and understanding the binary artefacts, or into something else entirely (which, granted, you are doing with Fujinet).

 

43 minutes ago, Tillek said:

So, looking at the lifecycle.....

 

11. Late to the party answers/responses/bumps (this can be up to years later).  <- We are here

12. Thread Lock

 

Did we cover the random Commodore bashing, or are we good to proceed?

I took a quick peek at the schedule. We're due for a comment about how the C64 community always releases their source code (including links to ancient products' GitHub projects), then a round of Commodore bashing, leading to the locked thread.

 

🍿

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Actually, overdue.  I really hate it when people get the sequence out of order.

 

Ok... who wants to make the post?  We need to get this moving along!

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I can't help but think that a broader adoption of a 'you do you' attitude would be hugely beneficial to the forum as well as the world at large.

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5 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

I can't help but think that a broader adoption of a 'you do you' attitude would be hugely beneficial to the forum as well as the world at large.

If that happened, I think the internet would collapse from lack of use.

 

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1 minute ago, Tillek said:

If that happened, I think the internet would collapse from lack of use.

Facts. :)

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Though I probably should clarify that I wouldn't consider that a bad thing. ;)

 

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2 hours ago, ivop said:

Unless it is proven to be better, and is indeed picked up by the community. Then either the DLT version vanishes, or you merge back the improvements

Well, look around, then define "proven" and "better". Grab sources to some latest beta, change version to 6.0, add dancing hamsters, release, see what happens. As long as I could have something to say, I would not take chances. The fates of DR-DOS may indicate that it might not necessarily always be the worse-quality or less honest party which "vanishes".

 

Plus, you seem to be optimistic about "merging improvements". This is an OS, it has to interact with software, some decisions in this field are and must be arbitrary, and relocating one internal variable arbitrarily may create an unsolvable conflict. And we do not have unlimited resources of CPU power and virtual memory to resolve such situations. So I would prefer to just get shit done instead.

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1 hour ago, Tillek said:

Actually, overdue.  I really hate it when people get the sequence out of order.

 

Ok... who wants to make the post?  We need to get this moving along!

C64 is a piece of shit.  We are faster but we have to cheat and turn DMA off.  Tag - you're it.

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Just now, Stephen said:

C64 is a piece of shit.  We are faster but we have to cheat and turn DMA off.  Tag - you're it.

*Sighs*

 

No, no, no.... we don't have "a comment about how the C64 community always releases their source code (including links to ancient products' GitHub projects)" yet!

 

*throws the script to the side*

 

"I just can't work with you people!"

 

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Stephen said:

C64 is a piece of shit.

 

Well it's basically just a jumped-up PET in a turd-coloured box with a couple of dodgy chips stuck on the side with duct tape.

 

No wonder its source gets posted far & wide- any coder would cry out to the Almighty, the angel Gabriel and all three Popes for help in coaxing anything useful from that crock of garbage.

Edited by drpeter
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Posted (edited)

PS opinions expressed in this thread may not represent those of the author 😀

Edited by drpeter

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*Sighs*

 

If you want something done right....

 

*delivered in the worst acting/monotone ever"

"You are all a bunch of poo-poo doodie heads... the C64 community always releases their source code!"

https://opensourcelibs.com/libs/commodore-64

 

Ok, NOW we can continue with the random commodore bashing.

 

If someone could let one of the moderators know, I think we're almost ready....

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Actually... might have to check some of those out..... but don't tell anyone, ok?

 

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2 hours ago, tschak909 said:

I am well aware that I have an unpopular view here. That's okay. I am pushing for this, because it's the right thing to do. Those of you who want to clutch your pearls behind civility can do so.

Please don't be so melodramatic about the subject.  We're talking about the source code to a DOS that you yourself have admitted is of incredibly niche interest, not the formula to the vaccine that cures cancer.

2 hours ago, tschak909 said:

and furthermore, I am okay with being bombastic in a position of no leverage. This is the essence of protest, which does not depend on politeness.

You've likely heard the adage, "you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."  Well, this is exactly the sort of situation that it applies to.

2 hours ago, tschak909 said:

By posting this, I am deliberately putting myself on record as a protestor to the fact that for decades these idiotic discussions have been taking place, with no action taken.

I'm incredibly reluctant to refer to your outburst as protest: that only serves to legitimise it as such when in reality it was just lashing out in anger without regard for the potential consequences of your actions.  Those consequences have burned goodwill that may have assisted in getting you what you wanted, and have almost certainly prevented others from sharing in it.

 

This truly is one of the most disappointing things I have had to witness on the Atari front in a very long time.  I can't even be angry about it, because that won't change anything.  But it's clear that expecting better was a mistake on my behalf.

 

I'm not going to continue this part of the discussion; it won't serve to help anything.

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23 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

I'm not going to continue this part of the discussion; it won't serve to help anything.

I think it's pretty clear that the discussion is over.  We've moved on to just joking around to relieve the tension and end the weekend on a calmer note.

 

 

 

 

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