Wrathchild Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 But the STE didn't get that close (SubStation) or is there an example I missed? Anyhow, are you guys heading towards the engine used in the Nu men demo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 @ Mark unbeleavable treasures in your ATR... will you try to finish the stuff? i was even thinking some night about paradroid conversion as i loved the ST version same with speedball (but loved more the sequel...) any chance that you work further on the stuff or have done these bits and peaces for fun? hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Ofcourse Charmode. So it will save a lot of CPU-Time on repetitive graphics. The movement on Wolf 3D is very simple... Umm. ... Err. ... Hmm. ... Have you actually played Wolf 3D? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Ofcourse Charmode. So it will save a lot of CPU-Time on repetitive graphics. The movement on Wolf 3D is very simple... Umm. ... Err. ... Hmm. ... Have you actually played Wolf 3D? Ofcourse. On an 486/33 i owned this days. But I am still wondering if you ever really coded on the Atari 8-bits.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 emkay... ts.ts.ts... so after these days of talking/discussing/dissing... what about a contest? emkay and others (me as well)... get up and code a game... emkay...amidarius is lightyears old... what about new stuff??? except forcing everybody and blaming... come on... show us new stuff??? (don't argue i am not a coder... with your insight you should be able to do... otherwise all your arguments may fall to ashes... ) hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Looking back on the history of the ATARI 8-bit.... Compared to the progression of the C64. Demos like Numen were already available in 1986. If this would have happened, everyone would have known that an active memory-controller has to be created... Compard to the progression of the C64. In 1986 MCS on the ATARI was "a normal thing" (but still today 4 colors are standard) Compared to the Progression of the C64. In 1992 we was able to view animated cartoon Videos in 128 colors with sound on the ATARI 8-Bits Compared to the progression of the C64. 1994 was made a Wolf 3D clone. In real... Numen was finished in 2002, MCS is still a not accepted standard and an active memory-Controller will never be available. So there is absolutely no fundamental to build on, I'd like to stop anything about this thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 (don't argue i am not a coder... with your insight you should be able to do... otherwise all your arguments may fall to ashes... ) The argues are already ashes. I don't think that the enthusiasm of the past years will ever come back which drove me to write programs on homecomputers. Where would you try to begin? Build a timemachine, to go back to 1983 and kick every ass you wanted to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 But I am still wondering if you ever really coded on the Atari 8-bits.. I've coded enough to realize that attempting to render a continuously scaling and rotating game world using character graphics would result in the most mind-bogglingly ugly game ever. In fact, it would look like this-- (Nether on the C64) No thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 But I am still wondering if you ever really coded on the Atari 8-bits.. I've coded enough to realize that attempting to render a continuously scaling and rotating game world using character graphics would result in the most mind-bogglingly ugly game ever. In fact, it would look like this-- No thanks. Hmmm, I don't think you understood what emkay was getting at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 But I am still wondering if you ever really coded on the Atari 8-bits.. I've coded enough to realize that attempting to render a continuously scaling and rotating game world using character graphics would result in the most mind-bogglingly ugly game ever. In fact, it would look like this-- Maybe you would see some 4x8 Rasters in the game. But it would for shure more look like the PC version of Wolf 3D than this crap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 emkay... put your energy in writing into 6502 code... where are MCS games??? i credit TMR... he writes a lot of posts AND coded 2 MCS intros in 3 weeks. what are we doing? writing & discussing... we should get up our a.. and write something nice... look... jpg is old and someday jpg2000 came...so what about MCS2003? come on...pack up your assembler and let the baby rock... otherwise noone will believe that the machine is the best 8bit on the earth... hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 heaven >i credit TMR... he writes a lot of posts AND coded 2 MCS intros in 3 weeks. TMR is one of a C64-coder-crew. I think no one of them was allways saying "impossible" ..."impossible" Now he is on a Forum where some ATARI-Oldtimers give him active help and tips for creating some XL/XE stuff... Then he can copy and convert graphics and sound, because there are tools to do so on the AMIGA and C64.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathchild Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Hi, @ Markwill you try to finish the stuff? ... any chance that you work further on the stuff or have done these bits and peaces for fun? These were done around the period of about 10-15 years ago. At that time some of the SB stuff was done using Atari Assembler and tape deck, it wasn't until the A8 game market time was almost up that I had got a disk-drive and MAC/65 cart. There's a few extra SB graphics on a disk image somewhere, team/player faces, I'll see if I can find them... As for completing... Elite should come first but I hop around too much with diversions pack up your assembler Shouldn't that be 'unpack'? :wink: Thanks, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathchild Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 OK, found it... This is a disk with Turbo Basic + some XL DOS on, so best see it in an Emulator. This was preliminary stuff before it would have been converted to asm. Boot up and RUN "D:SBALL.TUR" and you'll see the player selection screen. Left/Right stick selects and fire confirms. You then see the game summary, just use left/right again to loop through the opponents. Fire then finishes the demo. Sorry for not putting in the animations Mark sbwrk1.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheddy Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Nice work on SB, Mark - looks very authentic. Hope you manage to find the time to carry on with it (after Elite, of course ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 i credit TMR... he writes a lot of posts AND coded 2 MCS intros in 3 weeks. Are they done? Can we see 'em yet? -Bry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Are they done? Can we see 'em yet? The shorter of the two is just waiting for a thumbs up from Heaven on the real hardware and i'll crunch and release it (along with it's C64 cousin that was developed alongside it). i got six colours a rasterline in 160x192 with a scroller and an RMT tune, nothing special but that particular product doesn't need to be. The other intro is a bit more complex (an improved version of the screenshot i posted a while back) and the present plan is to add some effects and make a dentro of it. Sack's sorting a soundtrack out for it, too. Oh, nearly forgot - i've been busy for the last few days sorting out the completion of my first Plus/4 dentro (due to be released for a 16K competition at the start of September) so i've not really had a chance to play with the Atari code as much lately... i hate syncrhonisation timing. =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 TMR is one of a C64-coder-crew. I think no one of them was allways saying "impossible" ..."impossible" Actually, you'd be surprised how often i say that - i've seen some stuff on the C64 over the years that has made my jaw drop. The most recent was released last weekend and is a chunky pixel Wolf3D engine running in all four borders, considering the C64 needs to dedicate almost all the cycle time on every rasterline the border is open for that's damned impressive - it even plays music and sampled sounds! Actually, speaking of that Nether probably wasn't the best example of trying to shove a Wolf engine into the C64, have a look for Mood by Noname and the demos Mathematica by Reflex and Oneder by Oxyron - the latter demo has a joystick controlled engine. Then he can copy and convert graphics and sound, because there are tools to do so on the AMIGA and C64.... i use my own tools, either custom for the job or stuff like the Bitplane Toolkit which converts 4 colour images from the Amiga and is ten years old this year. =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Yeah, Mood actually looks somewhat impressive. But it doesn't run in plain-old character mode either. Seems to be using half-height characters, allowing for ~40x50 resolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 did i read my name? actually yes... the intros are waiting for testing on real hardware... but maybe you can give me some hints... how can i convience my sweatheart in setting up 2 atari machines (130xe + 800xl) + tv set + powesupply stuff beneath 2 pcs + scanner + monitor+printer+speakers+ gamecube+dreamcast+psone+books in a small room AND it should NOT looking crowed and messed up? that's actually the real problem... oh and i forgot the 2 docking stations (laptop of my girlfriend + "atari server" laptop connected sio2pc to atari... hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Yeah, Mood actually looks somewhat impressive. But it doesn't run in plain-old character mode either. Seems to be using half-height characters, allowing for ~40x50 resolution. Mood and Oneder's engines both run in what's referred to as Half FLI, basically they only touch the screen as a colour map and each "pixel" is 2x4 pixels in size making the actual screen resolution 80x50 - i believe Numen is running about the same res? There are a couple of demo engines that are using 160x200 mode but the best looking ones seem to be cheating to some degree and don't allow user control because they're "on rails". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheddy Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Mood's pretty impresive all right. Is there a reason why the Atari couldn't do something similar, TMR? Vector is based on a 80*48 screen from what I've read on Fox's site about it (sadly the site is no more). Without the real 3d of Vector, such an engine could presumably be done at a similar (if not faster) frame rate - not that Mood is in any way slow, it's very playable, considering what it's doing :wink: When I'm done with my current stuff, I'm really tempted to look at some of the clever methods used to create this kind of game. Don't hold your breath though, as I'm not particularly mathematically inclined or talented. Maybe emkay's ideas are slightly "pie in the sky" for this kind of game (Heaven's right emkay, we'd need a demo to prove the concept of the ideas!), but it's amazing what has been done already on C64. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Maybe emkay's ideas are slightly "pie in the sky" for this kind of game ... Well where is the Problem? Let's think about the possibilities right from the machine. The mightiest weapon of the XL/XE is the PM overlay. For a 3D engine try to put first a wrapper from linear screen to the PM map. Try to fit PMG on the Screen: P1 P2 P3 P4 M1234 So you'll have an overlay resolution (low PM res.) by 40X100 With Charmode (160x200) You would only have to do a lineup, and copy the needed chars with changing charmem in them if needed and where needed.... Like on C64 you may also build Enemies, that are fitting into the 4x8 Raster (res: 160x200) ... A couple of 4 chars fit onto the big Wall (zooming in and out) will look like some plaster is broken Fortunately you can use the Characters for Graphic-Windows and you don't have to redraw allways the whole screen. Maybe by that, one charset would be enough ... compared to mood... it will be enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheddy Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Hmm... OK, so mabe you can get similar results to something like Mood... :wink: BTW When I said "Vector" - I meant "Numen" - "Vector" was going to be the game based on the 3d Engine of Fox's which is also used in "Numen". My bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Sheddy >OK, so mabe you can get similar results to something like Mood... :wink: Sheddy.... where is your childhoods phantasy ? In theory you will get a 3D Engine that partial looks like the Sentinel -Eye. Practically you will get a screen of 75% like Mood. For the rest of 25% you have to clever chose the 160x200 res. where it is needed. >BTW When I said "Vector" - I meant "Numen" - "Vector" ... I think I know why FOX stopped development on VECTOR. The engine is useless for games as it is build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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