tripletopper Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 I heard the most colorful way to get Standard Def systems like every Sega system and super NES (and more if you're willing to mod your systems) is to use a SCART cable. I have all 5 above mentioned cables. I got 3 routes I can go. Either SCART to one of 2 YCbCr CRT TVs, and a CRT VGA. The first factor is good enough ping to play anything except an uncalibratable light gun game and Sega Scope 3D. I know light gun/3d would be a bonus, but not enough to abandon a good project for most games. The other 2 factors are capturabilty, and cost. I heard there is a test for my Sony Wega and Daewoo CRT. I play any Sonic the Hedgehog games that uses 240p and see if a chaos emerald has the same fluttering glow. If it's either, solid, invisible, or monochrome, don't use it. Any results known for a Sony Wega and a Daewoo? Now there's the issue RGB Gaming doesn't talk about, conversion to VGA. SCART to YCbCr is an issue of changing color spaces. SCART to VGA is not talked about much. And there are 2 oddball systems: Dreamcast and PS2 Dreamcast can do direct VGA, but I heard not every game. and I heard PlayStation 2 has both a YCbYr mode and RGB mode. I also have an Xbox Prime and a GameCube. And I have a Mayflash Component to VGA converter, so if it's low ping, it should work on my VGA. I don't think my VGA has a 15kHz mode. How do I tell? By the way, I'd the extra colors/definition worth it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatPix Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 (edited) There is no color conversion between SCART and VGA because both use analog signals for colors. the difference is that with SCART, the synchronisation signal is analog, where VGA use two digital signals. You can consider that SCART is a low-def VGA signal. So the video signal need no conversion if your VGA display accept interlaced signals; what need conversion is the sync signal, which many chips out there does. If your VGA input doesn't accept interlaced signals, you'll need a line doubler liek the OSCC to get at least a 640*480 signal with a progressive image. SCART RGB to YUV need conversion because, unlike what the YUV cable color suggest, YUV isn't using Red Green and Blue, but use Luma + Chroma spread between the two cables (it's much closer to S-video in the basic working); also, YUV use digital sync signal which neither SCART or VGA system will understand natively. I never looked into it, but from what I get, YUV is more common in video signal edition and capture than VGA; also, if you stick to consoles, YUV mods are sometime the only option avaiable with little modification (Colecovision) or they are the ones developped because the US market stuck to RF longer than most and have more YUV able TVs than Europe. For the "extra colors/resolution" you don't really gain any. The difference is that RF, composite and even S-video "blend" the video signal, which cause fuziness. RF and composite require filters, one for RF, and a comb filter for composite (RF signal is composite over a radio signal) which depending on your television, may vary in quality from excellent to crap. SCART, YUV and VGA are compatarively much simpler and get rid of color shifting, signal blending, etc. So which they do'nt offer "extra colors" or "higher resolution" they do offer a much clearer image in general. If you're thinking "higher resolution" with upscalers, it's mostly done because more modern display don't know what to do with a 640*480 signal (for VGA) or a 320p/625i signal from our old systems. Some may ignore them, many will upscale them but poorly, and many TV lack an option to resize the display to 4/3, so many upscalers, well, upscale the resolution to a more standard 720/1080 signal that most current display perfectly undertand. Edited October 3, 2020 by CatPix 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripletopper Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 Okay colorwise SCART=VGA. Most Capture devices use YUV (what is the difference between YUV and YCbCr? I know Y is luma aka greyscale component in both, the black and white TV signal) Comparing 15 kHz to 31 kHz plus sync change conversion Vs SCART RGB to 3 RCA YCbCr conversion:. Which one is cheaper? Are both processes sub-millisecond? My impression is that the Retrotink converts 240p RGB to 480p YPbPr? I can't use 480p on my 2 TVs. I thought that was for HDTVs. Do I have 240p via component on my Daewoo or Sony Wega? If so what is the simplest thing I need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripletopper Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 Would this device be the simplest way to convert SCART to 240p YCbCr 3 RCA? Would the sync signal be correct for a CRT TV with 240p via component? https://www.ebay.com/itm/RGB-SCART-ADAPTER-TO-RCA-COMPONENT-DM500-A-V-DREAMBOX-DM100-DM-500-100-RGB-SCA-/222981262441?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 (edited) https://atariage.com/forums/topic/302993-scart-s-video-and-ntsf-rf-to-vga/ A passive adapter doesn't convert any signals. Edited October 3, 2020 by mr_me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripletopper Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 6 hours ago, mr_me said: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/302993-scart-s-video-and-ntsf-rf-to-vga/ A passive adapter doesn't convert any signals. So we got to either two options either the monitor has a 15 kilohertz mode, and it would be a simple as a pin swap adapter, or it doesn't and has to go through an upstep converter. What is the Hertz rate exactly pixels per second? Do you multiply horizontal pixels by vertical pixels per frame multiplied by number of frames per second to see how many pixels per second? My monitor could play official VGA standard it looks like it has a 640x480x60 HZ and is official VGA. there's one other VGA standard all the other ones are VESA. Based on that two questions, what combinations would work TVs: Daewoo, Sony Wega, compaq with 640x480x60 mode. Systems with SCART: all Sega systems and Super NES without modding. Systems with component:; PlayStation 2 Xbox Prime, GameCube. Various physical adapters I have: SCART to three RCA red green blue. SCART TO VGA ADAPTER. RCA RED GREEN BLUE TO VGA ADAPTER. A powered active adapter I have a MayFlash three RCA YCbCr to VGA. Just wondering what I could do now and what I need to complete something. remember light gunping levels are not necessary if I want to play a light gun on a sagas console or Playstation 2 or Xbox I just use a component S-Video or composite downstairs in as straight as line as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 (edited) Here's a page that talks about converting rgb to vga and rgb to ypbpr. https://www.retrorgb.com/converters.html#:~:text=OSSC 2x mode %2B HDMI Converter – The,and scanlines look great when set to 100%. The retrotink rgb2comp will let you play the consoles outputting scart rgb on your televisions with ypbpr input. https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/rgb2comp Ask retrotink if the resolution stays at 240p or if it's doubled to 480p. Edited October 4, 2020 by mr_me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youxia Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 It seems that you are now in the so called DRH (Display Rabbit Hole). Try not to dig it any deeper My advice would be to forget everything else (the "most colorful ways" and the like) and use the simplest solutions which will get your gaming systems to display on your Wega's Component>S-Video>Composite. If you really like a system which has only composite then you can consider modding it up to S-Vid or component. Then enjoy playing some games instead of worrying about what people say on DRH-dedicated sites and videos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripletopper Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 The main reason I ask is I had those SCART adapters a long time before realizing how tough they wlare to work. I don't have enough info. I'm seeing whether it's worth selling my SCART stuff, or getting better pictures. If there's no extra equipment needed, I'll take it. I know SCART-> VGA requires no color space change. I don't see any SCART/VGA based line doublers. All line doublers seem to be HDMI OUT Based on personal experience, my HDMI systems convert well "enough" to work as low ping HD consoles. (You just have to adjust stuff.) So assuming my monitor won't blow up if wrongly plugged, I show just see if it works. What's the worst that can happen? As for pinh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripletopper Posted October 5, 2020 Author Share Posted October 5, 2020 Since people complain about me tldr, 3 questions. 1. How did Americans do start before high definition televisions? Should I just assume it was a color space conversion from RGB to YCbCr? 2 are there such things as three RCA RGB to three RCA ypbpr color space conversion boxes that are significantly cheaper than $50 which is the price of a powered scart to 3 RCA ycbcr converter? 3 Is that the only thing I need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 The scart connector was never used in north america. Some computers did use analog 15khz rgbs like the amiga, using a de9 connector. Professional/broadcast video equipment might have used rgb with bnc connectors. Ypbpr wasn't really used until progressive scan dvd (480p) came out; the game systems started supporting it directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatPix Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 For the Amiga monitors, I always find it amusing that at least for the French market (maybe European) they removed the DE9 and used SCART instead. In fact on non/SCART models you can see the cut for the SCART on the back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 Wasn't scart/peritel required by law in france. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatPix Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 Only on color televisions. The Commodore 64 monitor and Amstrad CPC monitors didn't had SCART for example. My guess is that Commodore decided that selling Amigas with SCART leads would allow them to sell a few more units to people equipped with SCART televisions, and also offer a branded useable monitor to people wanting to use any computer with SCART out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 I'm pretty sure in the US SVideo was a thing, and its quality is not bad, much better than composite, not as good as RGB (but not by a whole lot). It was available all the way to the Wii, XB360, and PS3 era, coexisting with component cables. My first TV when I moved in the US had SVideo connector and my PS2 looked much better on it than via composite. My first flat panel TV also supported 2 SVideo alongside component and HDMI so .... there was one higher fidelity alternative than composite before component was a thing (which as already mentioned started getting traction with Progressive Scan DVD readers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 I think the rgb thing happened because the genesis doesn't have an s-video option like the snes. But genesis natively has rgbs output. In the late 1990s and 2000s I used s-video with everything that had it, still do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Pendleton Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, mr_me said: I think the rgb thing happened because the genesis doesn't have an s-video option like the snes. But genesis natively has rgbs output. In the late 1990s and 2000s I used s-video with everything that had it, still do. Not sure if you'd want to consider it a "Genesis" exactly, but the Wondermega has S-video in place of RGB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApolloBoy Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 On 10/5/2020 at 6:29 AM, mr_me said: The scart connector was never used in north america. Some computers did use analog 15khz rgbs like the amiga, using a de9 connector. Professional/broadcast video equipment might have used rgb with bnc connectors. Ypbpr wasn't really used until progressive scan dvd (480p) came out; the game systems started supporting it directly. There were a few RCA TVs in their Dimensia line that actually had a SCART connector oddly enough: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA_Dimensia#/media/File:Dimensia_Interface.JPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripletopper Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 StoneAgeGamer.com has a SCART to YCbCr converter. I'm wondering if a) that's all you need, and b) works on YCbCr SD CRT TV with less than a scanline's time worth of delay. (Good for everything except light gun games) I tried emailing and calling them, but am waiting for an answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Are you talking about the retrotink rgb2comp? Analog to analog conversion shouldn't add any latency. You can ask retrotink directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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