My Kingdom for an arcade quality Intellivision controller!

[doubledown]

2 hours ago, fdr4prez said:

Should be no reason to have 2 top buttons. 

 

Maybe have a 3 button layout in a bit of a triangle. 

 

The top button would be the middle peak, and then you'd have a lower left button and a lower right button. 

 

The triangle is a possibility, but then, if you chose to hover your fingers over all 3 buttons simultaneously (for when needed), your middle finger would be manipulating the Top button (which seems to be the main button in a lot of games), versus your index finger manipulating the main button.  

 

41 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Most intellivision games use two side buttons or less with the top being the primary action.  Intellivision Defender being one of the exceptions where the bottom button is primary.  Then there is Pinball where the bottom left and right side buttons are each left and right flippers.  And there is Atlantis, although it's 16 directions, the top button is the left gun and the bottom button is the right gun.  So when you build the right-hand joystick version of the controller keep these left/right quirks in mind.   I think the button layout in that colecovision example is good, omit the button on the exterior side, and make the button in the middle the primary/top action.

 

I knew there would not be any 1 perfect order...for every game...but if the Top button is the main action button in a lot of games, I think it makes the most sense to lay it out like this:

 

Top - Left (bottom) - Right (bottom)

 

...at least for my brain to comprehend, and so that my index finger is manipulating the main button in most games (versus my middle finger).  Although I completely understand the thought of the layout like this:

 

Left (bottom) - Top - Right (bottom) (in a line, or arc, or triangle-ish, format)

 

Alternatively, the 3 buttons could be wired through 3 separate 4T switches, that would allow for any physical button, to be wired as any of the 3 button possibilities or, off/deactivated...on-the-fly.  I've done this same concept for a few different CV controllers.  

 

For a "right-hand joystick" version, which I take to mean...manipulating the joystick with your right-hand (for left handed people) and the buttons with your left hand, I've made one for the ColecoVision, and I simply mirrored the buttons so that your index finger is still manipulating the CV Left button (main button in most games), and your middle finger is still manipulating the CV Right button (secondary button in most games).  But it could get trickier with the Intellvision buttons...truly depending on a chosen layout.  

[+fdr4prez]

3 hours ago, fdr4prez said:

Maybe have a 3 button layout in a bit of a triangle. 

The top button would be the middle peak, and then you'd have a lower left button and a lower right button. 

 

1 hour ago, mr_me said:

I think the button layout in that colecovision example is good, omit the button on the exterior side, and make the button in the middle the primary/top action.

 

26 minutes ago, doubledown said:

The triangle is a possibility, but then, if you chose to hover your fingers over all 3 buttons simultaneously (for when needed), your middle finger would be manipulating the Top button (which seems to be the main button in a lot of games), versus your index finger manipulating the main button.  

 

...at least for my brain to comprehend, and so that my index finger is manipulating the main button in most games (versus my middle finger).  Although I completely understand the thought of the layout like this:

 

Left (bottom) - Top - Right (bottom) (in a line, or arc, or triangle-ish, format)

 

You are right, there isn't a perfect button layout.

 

i was just thinking of something like this:

 

 

A bit of a triangle (or slight arc) with the center slightly higher and that is the top button.

 

26 minutes ago, doubledown said:

if the Top button is the main action button in a lot of games, I think it makes the most sense to lay it out like this:

 

Top - Left (bottom) - Right (bottom)

 

...at least for my brain to comprehend, and so that my index finger is manipulating the main button in most games (versus my middle finger).  

This is definitely a good choice, too.

 

26 minutes ago, doubledown said:

Alternatively, the 3 buttons could be wired through 3 separate 4T switches, that would allow for any physical button, to be wired as any of the 3 button possibilities or, off/deactivated...on-the-fly.  I've done this same concept for a few different CV controllers.  

That's an interesting concept

Edited October 22, 2020 by fdr4prez

[+fdr4prez]

3 hours ago, doubledown said:

I've owned in Intellivision II, and an INTV System III (and about 50 games) for probably the better part of 20 years now...but I've never spent much time with them

Since you own and played Intellivision for some time, then you are aware that pressing 1+9 keypads would pause most games.

 

It may be beneficial to have a single pushbutton for a pause.  The single button would need to ground pins 2, 4, 6, 8 at the same time.

 

Thoughts?

[mr_me]

I'm imagining the index finger being on the middle button and the middle finger on the outside button.  These two buttons are at the same level beside each other.  The rarely used third button would be a little lower to the inside.  It would be like the defender arcade control panel.  With Intellivision Defender or Dracula you move your index finger to the first/inside button and your second finger on the middle button.  No need for switches and multiple configurations.

 

If you have keypad buttons, you can pause, if someone wants to pay for a dedicated pause button that's up to them.  One thing I was pondering was actually using arcade buttons for the keypad rather than a telephone keypad.

[doubledown]

1 hour ago, fdr4prez said:

That's an interesting concept

I've used a similar concept on multiple instances of Experience Controllers for the ColecoVision, wherein adding an actual keypad would detract from the arcade mimicing aesthetics, and apparently I'm a glutton for punishment and like the extra wiring.  On my Tutankham Controller for example:

 

 

The rotary switch at the bottom/center has 3 positions:

 

* Position 1 - P1 Start = Keypad #1 & P2 Start = Keypad #4 (easy)

* Position 2 - P1 Start = Keypad #2 & P2 Start = Keypad #5 (medium)

* Position 3 - P1 Start = Keypad #3 & P2 Start = Keypad #6 (difficult)

 

This same idea, can be used for only 1 button per rotary switch, to allow it to independently become "x" number of different options, presumably 3 in the case of the Intellivision, thus using (1) 4 position rotary switch each, for each of the 3 buttons, which would allow any of the three buttons to be either:

 

Top

Left (bottom)

Right (bottom)

"OFF"

 

1 hour ago, fdr4prez said:

Since you own and played Intellivision for some time, then you are aware that pressing 1+9 keypads would pause most games.

 

It may be beneficial to have a single pushbutton for a pause.  The single button would need to ground pins 2, 4, 6, 8 at the same time.

 

Thoughts?

 

Again, while I've owned Intellivision consoles/games for a very long time...I've rarely spent any time with them...but I thought I read this somewhere before.  It is definitely possible to add a dedicated PAUSE button.

 

1 hour ago, mr_me said:

I'm imagining the index finger being on the middle button and the middle finger on the outside button.  These two buttons are at the same level beside each other.  The rarely used third button would be a little lower to the inside.  It would be like the defender arcade control panel.  With Intellivision Defender or Dracula you move your index finger to the first/inside button and your second finger on the middle button.  No need for switches and multiple configurations.

 

If you have keypad buttons, you can pause, if someone wants to pay for a dedicated pause button that's up to them.  One thing I was pondering was actually using arcade buttons for the keypad rather than a telephone keypad.

 

I feel I take a controller's ergonomics into account, a lot more than most people...with regards to spacing, layout, and the likes.  My standard button layout/configuration that I developed is this (when always using the left-most button (the one with the center ring (#1)), as the 1st button, then adding, as necessary, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th to it's right):

 

 

As you can see above, the angle between button 1 and button 2, is significantly different from the angle between button 2 and button 3, due to the different lengths of human fingers, and the angle at which your wrists/hands rest, when your elbows are at your sides, and your forearms are rotated inward toward the center of your torso.  While most might not give it a 2nd thought, and some even simply install their buttons in a straight line, I know there is a great loss of comfort and ergonomics, if using buttons 2 and 3 (with your index and middle fingers respectively), when compared to using buttons 1 and 2 (with your index and middle fingers respectively).  Don't get me wrong, it can be used either way, it's simply not as comfortable.    

 

I've built a few controllers with larger 24mm Sanwa arcade push-buttons (round and square) for the keypad buttons:

 

 

...and this is probably the route I would lean towards, if going forward with an Intellivision controller.  They are definitely a lot nicer for games that require a lot of keypad button usage (as they're easier to both find and press), during the heat of frantic game-play.  

[mr_me]

You can do the middle and outer button ergonomic for the first two fingers as well.  There's several games that have the third action or even the second action button on the keypad.

[doubledown]

I think the best scenario is either 

 

1) Top - Left (bottom) - Right (bottom)

 

or 

 

2) Left (bottom) - Top - Right (bottom)

 

...and for me, I think I would lean toward option 1...and maintain my standard button layout, but with only 3 buttons.  The rotary selector switches are always a possibility, but would significantly add to the cost, and wiring time.  I will need to spend more time researching and playing through more of the library of games (that are playable without a 16-way joystick), to see how "necessary" these selector switches would even be.   In my opinion, if say half of the library used the Top button as the main button, and the other half used one of the Bottom buttons, I could understand the necessity...but for only a few games...I think it's probably an overkill.  

 

Then just to clean up a bit of wiring on the bench this weekend, I crimped on a 9-pin connector onto the hard-wired cable for the left controller on my INTV System III (which now allows for plug-in controllers, such as those from the Intellivision II), and also made a custom 9-pin (Atari) to 9-pin (INTV) passive adapter cable, that allows for the use of Atari and ColecoVision type controllers on the system.  Obviously this adapter cable only offers compatibility with 2-way and 4-way games (maybe some 8-ways as I understand), and 1 button (TOP)...but it did allow me to play some Donkey Kong, Burger Time, and Lock 'N Chase with one of my ColecoVision arcade sticks.  

 

I'll definitely need to do some more research for the button order, with reference to game compatibility...then I'd have to figure out how to "theme" the controller for the Intellivision.  

[mr_me]

I can think of two intellivision games where you probably want three fingers on three buttons.  They are championship tennis and world cup soccer but you might not want to play intellivision soccer with an 8-way control.  There are more games where the lower side button is the primary action.  Nova Blast is a game that uses three buttons, I don't play it so not sure if you want three fingers on three buttons.  It is a bit of a defender rip-off and intellivision defender is an example where you want the lower button for fire as the primary action button.

Edited October 26, 2020 by mr_me

[doubledown]

Does the Intellivision port of Defender allow for "HYPERSPACE?"  No mention of it on either of the homebrew overlays I've seen for it, and I read through a TXT version of the manual online that mentions "HYPERSPACE," I think twice...but no where did I read how to activate it.  Anybody know this one.  

[mr_me]

Hyperspace is on the keypad.

[doubledown]

30 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Hyperspace is on the keypad.

Any particular button?

 

Out of curiosity...and to possibly save me some time...in the 41 years since the release of the Intellivision, has any super-fan, or group of super-fans, put together a master list of all of the games with their joystick requirements (2/4/8/16-way), button & keypad usage/assignments, and the likes?

[mr_me]

Any keypad button is hyperspace in defender.  With astrosmash it's kp3, space hawk is kp9, and loco-motion is kp-enter.

 

Space Hawk has two control modes, one makes use of 16 directions, the other is 2-way for cw and ccw rotation.

Edited October 26, 2020 by mr_me

[doubledown]

12 minutes ago, mr_me said:

With astrosmash it's kp3, space hawk is kp9, and loco-motion is kp-enter.

Well those are all obvious as they are all denoted on their keypad overlays...and listed in their manuals.  But 2 different Defender homebrew overlays I've seen, as well as 2 separate TXT files of the manual, make no mention of how to activate it...very strange.  Like I said, I'll obviously have to spend some time with the games library and the available documentation to get a better idea of how many games can work well enough without being able to manipulate the 3 buttons' functions, as well as determine how many games can work with an 8-way or less.  

[mr_me]

Here's a list of intellivision cartridges that use only eight directions or less.

* require diagonal circuits

 

ad&d, locknchase, night stalker, sharp shot, snafu, mazeatron*, math fun, horse racing, poker & bj, royal dealer, astrosmash, space armada, us ski team, backgammon, checkers, space spartans, treasure of tarmin, burgertime, buzz bombers, kool-aid man, loco-motion, mission-x*, pinball

 

chip shot, dig dug, mountain madness, decathlon, learning fun I, thin ice, thunder castle, tower of doom

beauty and the beast, demon attack, safe cracker, truckin'

centipede*, defender*, pac-man

all activision (river raid*, dreadnaught factor*, worm whomper* require diagonal circuits)

all coleco except turbo and zazzon

all parker brothers (empire strikes back* and super cobra* require diagonal circuits)

blockade runner, sewer sam

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by mr_me

[doubledown]

Thanks for the list...it's a good place to get started.  A buddy brought over last night, his LTO flash cart (and he's letting me borrow it for a few days), so at least now I can test the whole library myself, at least the "original games" that I have the files for.  I also remember reading where people had said that some games will work "diagonally properly" even with the odd +22.5 degree angles achieved from only connecting 2 of the cardinal directions, without the extra 3rd wire (pin 9), whereas you don't get a true up & right at 45 degrees, you really get 67.5 degrees.  And with just some minimal testing last night I can confirm that games like Venture and Q*bert, do work "diagonally proper", when only 2 wires (2 cardinal directions) are connected to ground.  So are all 8-way games like that, and only the 16-ways cause the issue, or are there some 8-way games that need to see the pure diagonals to register them...with some testing...I will find out.  

[mr_me]

Yes, only the ones marked with an asterisk are the diagonals a problem with just the four cardinal direction pins connected.  For example, the diagonals in ad&d, snafu, space spartans, qbert, venture should be fine either way.  The only cartridges I didn't include are those for the ecs computer module and homebrews (and unreleased cartridges); let me know if I made any errors.

Edited October 27, 2020 by mr_me

[doubledown]

Thanks for the info @mr_me  I started going through the Intellivison library tonight, to personally verify, how many directions each game requires.  I got through about 30 games so far, and hopefully in a few more days I'll have worked through the entire "original library" to get a true count/list for the games that are either 1-way, 2-way, 4-way, 8-way, 8-way (INTV), and 16-way.  

 

In additional news...I did come up with a way to create a 16-way digital arcade joystick that would be passive (no power requirement).  Electrically the concept works...I just need to see if I can actually modify an existing joystick to build it.  I had to order a bunch of parts for some other controllers I've been commissioned to build, so I went ahead and ordered the switches that I'm going to try to use to make it; so we'll just have to wait and see if/how it comes out.  

[mr_me]

Modify a joystick?  I thought you might get 16 directions with your prototype eight switch joystick.  How does it work?

[doubledown]

Adding 4 extra switches to a standard 4-switch, 8-way joystick, only gets me a passive 8-way INTV joystick, wherein the "diagonals" achieved are true diagonals of 45, 135, 225, and 315 degrees, versus the +22.5 degree diagonals of 67.5, 157.5, 247.5, and 337.5 degrees that the Intellivision creates/sees, when only 2 wires, through 2 cardinal direction switches are grounded.  The additional 4 switches I added, 1 in each corner, ground wire 9, in addition to the 2 contacts of the existing cardinal direction switches also being closed simultaneously, and this is what creates the true diagonals, passively on the Intellivision.  For only 8 switches to create 16 unique directions, 8 wires would need to be used, but the Intellivision does it simply with 5, because the drawn conductive traces on the flexible membranes can allow for this this sort of witchcraft.  But in the real world, where physical switches are to be used, with only having 5 wires to create 16 directions, it will have to be done with 16 switches...1 for each direction.  So my attempt will be to create a circular array of 16 switches around the joystick's actuator, in a break-before-make scenario...which yields 16 separate directions...passively.  The joystick that i'll be using has a round restrictor so that the the switches can be installed equidistant from the actuator's center point (versus a square restrictor/gate, that would have longer throws into the corners), and allow for a b-b-m install .  I'll just need to figure out the mounting diameter for the switches, and the diameter for the nylon actuator...that will make this all possible.   

[+grips03]

Action buttons and keypad are pretty straight forward using passive methods.

 

It was the joystick that forced me to use logic gates and since a CPLD has a bunch gates, pins, and low power I decided to use it for the action buttons and keypad too.

 

 

 

I use to sell this adapter, but not making them right now.  I might make them again down the road.  I made an enhanced model as well, but not sure I'm going to get around to selling them.