Sys-Check V2.2 and IDE+v2.0 and SIO2BT and OS Switching (Oh my.)

[MrFSL]

Hello Atari Folks!

 

I am one of those Atari users who don't have the skill or desire to do much soldering to my computer (800xl). So I appreciate add-on solutions that are CART, SIO, or PBI based. Some of the first "needs" one finds themselves having in this hobby are RAM upgrades and OS switching. So the @tf_hh solution Sys-Check v2.2 (XL) has been such a great purchase. Its a PBI device that allows chaining additional PBI devices. I have been using it alongside the IDE+v2.0 (another PBI device) which I got from @Simius and the combination has been wonderful! Recently I worked with @drac030 as the IDE+ provides accelerated IO without patching the OS. Several people commented that I would need to modify or remove components to get these speeds but my Atari runs pretty well as stock and the RAM upgrade via the Sys-Check seem to even out everything completely; getting me to POKEY div. 0!

 

So I am all very happy and things run fantastically and I haven't soldered anything or removed any stock components.

 

I decided to play around with SIO2BT as (I purchased a Fujinet) and here is where I ran into troubles. To make this work I need to patch the OS - but enabling this feature on the Sys-Check doesn't seem to work with the IDE+. I never needed to switch the OS because the IDE+ handled its own highspeed IO. So I don't even know if its possible to make them work together but seeing that they are designed, built, and coded by different people I thought I would ask. My combination of add-ons might be niche but it is extremely functional for us less skilled members - while allowing me to move and share add-ons between Ataris. Perhaps its something that can be patched easily - perhaps not - perhaps its too niche an installation --- perhaps it can never work for reasons hopefully one of you can explain --- either way, It never hurt to ask.

 

 

Ultimately, perhaps the Sys-Check or IDE+ could be updated to be compatible in this function. Or Perhaps the IDE+ could add this functionality similar to how it handles high speed IO without patching the OS. Or perhaps someone much more experienced and smarter than I am can give me the necessary series of steps so that SIO2BT works while these two devices remain as is and only partial compatibility. I had already started exploring running SDX from external cart on IDE+ and all sorts of combinations which haven't worked yet. I know there are other ways to do OS switching. I have one Atari with one socketed OS chip and one without. I decided to purchase an Antonia for my daily Atari and I know it brings this functionality - but I think if possible this combination would still be very useful to myself and others. I read from @Montezuma manual on SIO2BT that it is possible to load (possibly with some limitations) the necessary OS patches at boot time but I can't figure out how I might chain that all together. I am open for any suggestions that don't involve telling me to purchase a different component that I have to send out to one of you for proper and professional installation.

 

Cheers everyone!

 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by MrFSL

[TXG/MNX]

Accelerated io on ide+?

What do you need to enable that?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn POCO F1 met Tapatalk

[MrFSL]

 

USpeed SIO

[flashjazzcat]

SIO2BT needs an extended command timeout. If you turn off the USpeed driver on the IDE+, it should pass SIO requests through to the customised OS if there is no partition on that drive ID. PBI handlers (such as the USpeed handler) block this if they handle the serial request on a given drive.

 

SDX would need the /A switch on the SIO driver in order to default to using the OS SIO handler, but since SDX's SIO driver can be configured to work with SIO2BT anyway, there is probably not much point. I think the necessary configuration is explained in the SDX manual.

[MrFSL]

2 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

If you turn off the USpeed driver on the IDE+, it should pass SIO requests through to the customised OS

I thought I had tried that and still ended up at a black screen when booting and using the Sys-Check to provide the patched OS. I will try again --- perhaps I missed it.

 

3 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

SDX would need the /A switch on the SIO driver in order to default to using the OS SIO handler, but since SDX's SIO driver can be configured to work with SIO2BT anyway, there is probably not much point. I think the necessary configuration is explained in the SDX manual.

Wonderful! I will read up on the SIO handler and the SIO2BT specific configuration. (I promise I read this documentation once.  ) The Maxflash 1MB SDX did work with the patched rom being provided by the Sys-check without modifying the default configs after I removed the IDE+.

 

[manterola]

Tell me if I am not understanding correctly, but it looks to me that you can add the patched OS for SIO2BT in one if the Syscheck "slots" , for example if you don't use QMEG or the XL  high speed OS. 

Then you just use the dip switches in syscheck to select that SIO2BT OS. As far as I know the latest versionSIO2BT patched OS also provides Hias SIO high speed.

The way to write to the OS slots in the syscheck is by using a software (flashtool) you can get here.

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

Just now, manterola said:

Then you just use the dip switches in syscheck to select that SIO2BT OS.

Correct, but if the IDE Plus 2.0 USpeed driver is enabled, it handles serial IO at the PBI level on the selected drive IDs, and the patched OS will never handle the IO request on those drives.

 

[MrFSL]

1 minute ago, manterola said:

Tell me if I am not understanding correctly,

You are not understanding correctly. All of that IS possible and I have been success in doing this very thing - but only WITHOUT the IDE+ connected. If you enable ANY patched rom on the Sys-Check while you have the IDE+ connected you boot to black. This is in fact the compatibility issue I am outlining in this post.

 

[MrFSL]

17 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Correct, but if the IDE Plus 2.0 USpeed driver is enabled, it handles serial IO at the PBI level on the selected drive IDs, and the patched OS will never handle the IO request on those drives.

And I have disabled this setting but as I just mentioned to @manterola there is an additional compatibility issue.

 

 

 

I can also confirm that the /A option in CONFIG.SYS does not exist for the Maxflash 1MB SDX - thought SIO2BT works with the SYS-CHECK providing the patched rom. I don't know why that is, but to be clear - this is with the IDE disconnected and the SDX being provided by CART instead.

 

 

I found this in the SDX manual:

 

 

So if I read that correctly, when using SDX with the appropriate SIO settings a patched ROM is no longer needed. Is that so simple as my issuing a SIOSET WAITACK 16 while making sure to disable the IO speed setting on the IDE+ and making sure /C and /A exist no where in CONFIG.sys? Well... asking a question before trying it myself is pretty lame of me. Too late!

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by MrFSL

[drac030]

27 minutes ago, MrFSL said:

If you enable ANY patched rom on the Sys-Check while you have the IDE+ connected you boot to black.

So, Sys-Check can supply OS ROM to Atari externally, and if you configure it so that it supplies one (patched or not), it does not work with IDE+ - and if you configure Sys-Check so that it allows Atari to use its internal ROM, IDE+ works. Do I understand correctly?

 

24 minutes ago, MrFSL said:

I can also confirm that the /A option in CONFIG.SYS does not exist for the Maxflash 1MB SDX

This is optional As far as I know no SDX build has DEVICE SIO /A or DEVICE SIO /C in the default CONFIG.SYS because that limits the functionality of the SDX SIO subsystem. So it is at user's discretion to enable that, if the OS ROM SIO suits the needs better.

[MrFSL]

So... yeah. Disable highspeed IO in the IDE+, issue a SIOSET WAITACK 16 and play around with your write delay times on whatever software your are using on the PC and SIO2BT is working with IDE+. Grand!

 

Now - as convenient as that is (thanks @flashjazzcat for pointing me in the right direction) I am trading functionalities here so I would still like to get both the Sys-Check and the IDE+ working when using the OS switcher. With the highspeed IO disabled don't I now have a reason for wanting to patch the OS ROM?

 

1 minute ago, drac030 said:

So, Sys-Check can supply OS ROM to Atari externally, and if you configure it so that it supplies one (patched or not), it does not work with IDE+ - and if you configure Sys-Check so that it allows Atari to use its internal ROM, IDE+ works. Do I understand correctly?

You nailed it! In short their is a series of DIP switches on the Sys-Check. Raising DIP #2 enables OS switching. That fails with IDE+ for any OS - even stock.

 

---

 

Lastly, --- The functionality of SIO2BT with the SDX Maxflash 1mb image is the most surprising. It just seems to work with none of this - no sys-check card inserted - no ide+ connected - no waitack 16 --- seriously no idea why that would be, but I am going to stop using it to test because my outcomes are wildly different.

 

[drac030]

7 minutes ago, MrFSL said:

You nailed it! In short their is a series of DIP switches on the Sys-Check. Raising DIP #2 enables OS switching. That fails with IDE+ for any OS - even stock.

IDE+ also supplies its PBI ROM externally. So when the OS ROM is supplied externally too, there is probably a conflict. @Simius @tf_hh

 

sio2bt: this is one more reason to add another page of options in IDE+...

[MrFSL]

11 minutes ago, drac030 said:

sio2bt: this is one more reason to add another page of options in IDE+

Well - perhaps. Perhaps a utility that functionally does what SIOSET WAITACK 16 does but only for PBI IDE+ I/O (pardon my ignorance.) That would be nice on its own for sure and might be useful in other places.

 

Otherwise it is a SDX only solution that I have so far and that greatly diminishes the usefulness of SIO2BT vs SIO2PC/USB/hacked-together-cable/etc.

 

[+tf_hh]

18 hours ago, MrFSL said:

You are not understanding correctly. All of that IS possible and I have been success in doing this very thing - but only WITHOUT the IDE+ connected. If you enable ANY patched rom on the Sys-Check while you have the IDE+ connected you boot to black. This is in fact the compatibility issue I am outlining in this post.

 

Could you sent me the firmware/O.S. you´ve flashed into SysCheck? I have all components you named and will make some tests at the weekend.

 

[+tf_hh]

18 hours ago, drac030 said:

IDE+ also supplies its PBI ROM externally. So when the OS ROM is supplied externally too, there is probably a conflict. @Simius @tf_hh

 

I think (just an unverified idea) that the IDE+ interface only maps ROM between $D800-$DFFF with pull MPD to low, right? This should be passed by Sys-Check normally. I will check, too.

 

[MrFSL]

All the OS image that you included with my SysCheck XL exhibit the same behavior. I can repatch the 800xl rom if you REALLY want me to later tonight?

 

The HSIO patched rom on the device i THINK has the key combination to cold reset. If you used that one and everything booted you could verify everything was happening with that ROM if the key combination worked??? Just an idea. (I'm a noob and often wrong.)

Edited December 11, 2020 by MrFSL

[+tf_hh]

On 12/11/2020 at 8:36 PM, MrFSL said:

The HSIO patched rom on the device i THINK has the key combination to cold reset. If you used that one and everything booted you could verify everything was happening with that ROM if the key combination worked??? Just an idea. (I'm a noob and often wrong.)

 

Your thoughts were absolut correct. I´ve tested today. I own only two pieces "Rev. C" of the IDE+ boards, but I think, this makes no real difference to your Rev. D board. It doesn´t work, if one O.S. is mirrored by Sys-Check in conjunction with the IDE+

 

The reason is simple: Sys-Check doesn´t look to the MPD signal. So everytime an access to the PBI ROM is made ( @drac030 mentioned this earlier ), then Sys-Check mirrors the it´s OS-ROM.

 

I will think about a solution. Maybe I can easily offer a fix.

 

[+tf_hh]

On 12/10/2020 at 11:49 PM, drac030 said:

IDE+ also supplies its PBI ROM externally. So when the OS ROM is supplied externally too, there is probably a conflict.

 

Yes, as thought before, this was it. Sys-Check didn´t read the MPD signal, it´s completely ignored. I´ve patched one of my Sys-Check PCBs with an additional little single logic gate and then both work fine. Unfortunately it´s no an easy patch and talking about the Sys-Check XL model here, one if the PLCC sockets must be desoldered.

 

@MrFSL, if you have a good solder guy at hand, I would sent you the instructions and changed logic file by email. The capability to burn 22V10 GALs in PLCC case must also be given. Requires handling of small SMD parts.

 

[MrFSL]

6 hours ago, tf_hh said:

I will think about a solution. Maybe I can easily offer a fix.

The willingness to help on this forum never ceases to amaze me. I also appreciate the fact that the answers I get here are technical ones as well. I had no idea what MPD was and now I know "Math Pack Disable" - top pin 43, etc. It gives me something to research and learn and grow in my new hobby. Cool! Thank you.

 

4 hours ago, tf_hh said:

I´ve patched one of my Sys-Check PCBs with an additional little single logic gate and then both work fine.

Awesome!!

 

4 hours ago, tf_hh said:

Unfortunately it´s no an easy patch

Less Awesome...

 

4 hours ago, tf_hh said:

one if the PLCC sockets must be desoldered.

...Shit!

 

4 hours ago, tf_hh said:

if you have a good solder guy at hand, I would sent you the instructions and changed logic file by email. The capability to burn 22V10 GALs in PLCC case must also be given. Requires handling of small SMD parts.

Well - I have none of this. LOL! I do however have access to some hardware guys I can annoy enough to sometimes do my bidding. When I pull a datasheet and see this though:

I have a suspicion my friends will say "no." I would find it academically interesting if nothing else so please send along your instructions. 

 

@tf_hh Do you think this "additional logic gate" change will be a permanent addition to future builds? That could give me or others the opportunity to possibly purchase a newer board in the future. I have no idea what the post charges would be --- but perhaps in the somewhat distant future I could send mine back to you for some work?

 

----

 

Meanwhile I have had success in getting connections at 19200 using the SIOSET WAITACK 16 in SDX with the highspeed IO disabled. This settings is curious to me. Unfortunately without the higher speed IO afforded me by the IDE+ and the inability to pass through a HSIO patched OS using SysCheck I can't yet play with the IDE+ and 57600 mode on the Fujinet as explained here:

 

Ultimately I was able to load a cart with the Maxflash 1MB SDX image and then the SysCheck OS feature so I could just "see it work." It required sio2bsd --- RespeQt wouldn't run the faster mode for me at all. Not sure if its my ntsc Atari speeds vs the available baud or not - but this faster sio2bt wasn't superbly reliable anyhow. On my SIO to USB homemade cable I get really reliable speeds at 38420 but I don't think the Fujinet is capable as of today.

 

The IDE+ supports more than SDX, so regardless I will either try to get the two working together or find another RAM upgrade plus OS switcher. Perhaps the Antonia? --- I also have not tried the runtime patching. The IDE+ can mount two ATR's and there is a physical switch to swap them... not ideally what I am after but it might be worth a try just to play around. 

 

In the meantime I have a bunch of reading to do. Thanks everyone!

 

 

[+tf_hh]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:55 PM, MrFSL said:

The willingness to help on this forum never ceases to amaze me. I also appreciate the fact that the answers I get here are technical ones as well. I had no idea what MPD was and now I know "Math Pack Disable" - top pin 43, etc. It gives me something to research and learn and grow in my new hobby. Cool! Thank you.

 

?

 

On 12/13/2020 at 8:55 PM, MrFSL said:

Do you think this "additional logic gate" change will be a permanent addition to future builds? That could give me or others the opportunity to possibly purchase a newer board in the future. I have no idea what the post charges would be --- but perhaps in the somewhat distant future I could send mine back to you for some work?

 

Yes, at future revisions of the Sys-Check XL I will include this (talking about the XL/XE Standard or BBU version: there´s no possibility to connect a PBI device, so no change needed)

 

[TheMontezuma]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:55 PM, MrFSL said:

 

Meanwhile I have had success in getting connections at 19200 using the SIOSET WAITACK 16 in SDX with the highspeed IO disabled. This settings is curious to me. Unfortunately without the higher speed IO afforded me by the IDE+ and the inability to pass through a HSIO patched OS using SysCheck I can't yet play with the IDE+ and 57600 mode on the Fujinet as explained here:

 

For using higher baudrates for SIO2BT with Sparta Dos X, you need to configure it (additionally to SIOSET WAITACK 16).

Example:

 

Quote

SIOSET 1 US 8

sets a HSINDEX 8 (corresponding to ~57600) to disk 1

 

(SIO2BT dongle needs to be configured for 57600 with btcfg.com or with BTCONFIG.XEX or if you use Fujinet, 'A' button toggles between 19200 and 57600, when the device is in "SIO2BT" mode)

 

[MrFSL]

15 hours ago, tf_hh said:

Yes, at future revisions of the Sys-Check XL I will include this (talking about the XL/XE Standard or BBU version: there´s no possibility to connect a PBI device, so no change needed)

So there have been additional added benefits of this Syscheck. With this card and the RAM enabled I can reach higher stable SIO speeds even without high speed patches or having to lift any caps. That isn't an advertised feature but I have tested on two different Atari's and have the same result. It also lets me use it and other PBI devices together so please continue to include the PBI connection as an option in the future. Its simply fantastic!

 

10 hours ago, TheMontezuma said:

For using higher baudrates for SIO2BT with Sparta Dos X, you need to configure it (additionally to SIOSET WAITACK 16)

Thank you so much for the instructions. @drac030 made me aware of the SIOSET and I have been using it extensively in my testing I have the Fujinet and I found the button press to flip to 57600 from an early post by you on a different thread (thanks by the way.)

 

Using the IDE+ (without the HIAS Patches) I still couldn't get this speed stable. Using the patched OS without SDX from IDE+ (from a cartridge instead) it runs super stable. Then oddly enough - using the RAM function of the SysCheck everything is greatly improved with no patches as at all.

 

Earlier I was stating how SDX when run from cart. seemed to be working without patches --- this is actually only when the SysCheck RAM is enabled. 

 

You folks all ROCK for taking the time to help me out. Cheers!

[MrFSL]

Good Evening Atarians!

 

Rounding out this thread with a handful of updates.

 

FIRST: My BT testing with Fujinet just got a whole lot more reliable. As seen here:

It tuns out that I have been fighting some RF noise issues that could have been disrupting my BT. I have a work around and will get back to testing more BT when I can.

 

SECOND: Drac030 has worked with me and has provided the WAITACK functionality along side the IDE+ High Speed IO making it so that I no longer need to disable the IDE+ PBI based SIO. Thanks so much Drac030 --- I can't tell you how much appreciate you willingness to provide your time and talent - as well as sooo much education to beginners like myself. What an awesome community.

 

THIRD: This doesn't fix the incompatibility with the Sys-Check but tf_hh is still looking into possible solutions there as well. I'm excited to see what might come out of this for sure!

 

LASTLY: I hope this week I have some time to play around and do more testing with the Atari. I couldn't get much time off of work this week but for the little time I have received, the Governor of NY has made sure it will not be spent in joyous communion with friends and family. --- So (silver-lining) perhaps that means Atari-Time!!!

 

Thanks everyone.