Archiving floppies from my 800

[dukes909]

Hi folks, newb here.  I read thru 8 pages of the FAQ but didn’t see this this answered.  I have also read many posts related to this but there appears to be many directions to take.

 

I have recently dug my 800 and 2 810 drives out and am browsing through the many floppies of games, programs I wrote and even term papers in high school (1983).  The one working 810 drive seems to tire out after a while and so I would like to archive my floppies somehow.  
 

I currently run Ubuntu 20 although I also have a MacBook Pro; no Windows unless I install it under a VM.   
 

Is SIO2SD the best, current way to archive floppies?  It appears from everything I have read most people are going the other way, from ATR files to floppies.  I have also read about APE but it looks like it needs Windows.  I also see things about SIO2USB but isn’t clear if I can use existing 810 with this.

 

Pointers to other threads or recommendations welcomed. Thank you for any help!

 

Cheers

Dukester

[800_Rocks]

Hi - Welcome to the club.  I have my 1982 800 as well but have numerous working drives (810, 1050, XF551).  I have not used SIO2SD so I can't comment on that.  What I do use and what has worked well for me is the SIO2PC that Steven J Tucker sells over on https://www.atarimax.com/sio2pc/documentation/

I use the one described as 'USB Interface w/ SIO JACK' which I've had for many years.  I have a licensed copy of the 'APE for Windows' software which works great.

 

I attach one or two of my Atari drives to the SIO2PC via the Atari SIO cable.  Then the SIO2PC connects to my Win7 PC via USB.  I run the APE software, it sees my drive(s) and allows me to create .ATR files from disk images.  I can also do the reverse, create a diskette image from a .ATR file.

 

I also have an SDMax Drive.  So I can copy all of my .ATR disk images to a microSD memory card for the SDMax Drive for solid state enjoyment of all my original diskettes.

 

Note:  the SIO2PC setup, running APE also lets my PC act as a set of emulated Atari drives too.  So to my Atari it looks like one or more Atari drives.  Use APE to find and mount disk images in virtual drives 1-8, etc.  I used to use an old laptop just for that before I bought the SDMax Drive.

 

Hope this gives you some ideas.  Good luck and enjoy!
-dan

[Sugarland]

How does the one working 810 tire out? Have you tried properly lubricating it? That may bring it to 100%.

[dukes909]

1 hour ago, Sugarland said:

How does the one working 810 tire out? Have you tried properly lubricating it? That may bring it to 100%.

I haven't lubricated it. Is there a guide on maintaining these drives? I literally just took it out of 25 years of storage.  Seemed to work ok on first few then it doesn't seem to register any more floppies placed in it. Cheers

[dukes909]

3 hours ago, 800_Rocks said:

Hi - Welcome to the club.  I have my 1982 800 as well but have numerous working drives (810, 1050, XF551).  I have not used SIO2SD so I can't comment on that.  What I do use and what has worked well for me is the SIO2PC that Steven J Tucker sells over on https://www.atarimax.com/sio2pc/documentation/

I use the one described as 'USB Interface w/ SIO JACK' which I've had for many years.  I have a licensed copy of the 'APE for Windows' software which works great.

 

I attach one or two of my Atari drives to the SIO2PC via the Atari SIO cable.  Then the SIO2PC connects to my Win7 PC via USB.  I run the APE software, it sees my drive(s) and allows me to create .ATR files from disk images.  I can also do the reverse, create a diskette image from a .ATR file.

 

I also have an SDMax Drive.  So I can copy all of my .ATR disk images to a microSD memory card for the SDMax Drive for solid state enjoyment of all my original diskettes.

 

Note:  the SIO2PC setup, running APE also lets my PC act as a set of emulated Atari drives too.  So to my Atari it looks like one or more Atari drives.  Use APE to find and mount disk images in virtual drives 1-8, etc.  I used to use an old laptop just for that before I bought the SDMax Drive.

 

Hope this gives you some ideas.  Good luck and enjoy!
-dan

Thanks, I will check the SIO2PC out!  It sounds like a great solution except I am running Ubuntu and not Windows.  I really really do not want to have to dual boot Windows just for this purpose...  Is there a way to use APE in Linux?

Cheers

[+Allan]

Some notes. If any of your disks are commercial copy-protected disks you won't be able to archive them with an SD device. There are a couple of more expensive ways to do that and there are some people that may be willing to do it for you. But note that many commercial disks (but not all) have already been archived. If you have any and you are wondering if they have been archived, you can list them here and we can tell if they have been or not.

 

For non commercial disks, pubic domain disks, your own program disks, etc., you can use a number of devices. The SD2PC/Mac devices are good but you can get a FujiNet device for a comparable (maybe even a bit cheaper) price and have access to the Internet. These have a Micro-SD card in them, although you can also send files through Wifi to your computers and even to other people's computers via the Internet/router.

 

https://thebrewingacademy.com/collections/atari-800-xl-xe-xel-xld/products/fujinet-a-swiss-army-knife-for-your-atari

 

You are still going to have to either fix your drive or get another working drive though to archive your disks (which I hope you do). Especially if you either have some un-archives programs from back in the day or your own programs you wrote that you think people would like to see.

[800_Rocks]

1 hour ago, dukes909 said:

Thanks, I will check the SIO2PC out!  It sounds like a great solution except I am running Ubuntu and not Windows.  I really really do not want to have to dual boot Windows just for this purpose...  Is there a way to use APE in Linux?

Cheers

That's a question for Steve.  Find his email near the bottom of his home page over at https://www.atarimax.com/

[Gunstar]

I know Steve still sells an MS-DOS version of APE, so if you can run something similar to DOS-BOX on Ubuntu/Linux that should work for you. It's listed on the same page as the APE software on Atarimax's site.

[BillC]

5 hours ago, dukes909 said:

Is there a way to use APE in Linux?

I believe there is a version of RespeQT that works with Linux, if not source code is available to compile it for your distribution. I don't think it works with the Atarimax SIO2PC/USB and would require a different version.

 

Another alternative, though it would be more expensive, is the Fujinet device. It allows connections to network/internet shares via WIFI, and also has printing to PDF which can then be printed using another computer. No physical connection required, just have to install/configure software for the shared folder.

Edited December 27, 2020 by BillC

[SenorRossie]

I have written down my own attempt at archiving my collection:

https://github.com/senorrossie/sh-archive2atr

 

Everyone has their own preferences, SIO2PC, SIO2SD, APE, etc. Use what you're comfortable with. A SIO2PC requires a PC (Windows/Mac/Linux/...), SIO2SD, SDrive, Fujinet, etc does not and the archiving can be completely executed on the Atari.

 

For pc's there are plenty of tools available: RespeQT, sio2bsd, ape, etc. Read up on them, this forum is full of posts on tools and using them. Once you are familiar with them, start archiving with your favorite.

[+Larry]

Start here if you haven't already looked:

 

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/176545-topic-for-newbies-or-veterans-returning-to-atari/

 

Lots of info there, and well organized.

[bandit]

Nick Kenndy Made the first SIO2PC 1990's and it was an easy build. here is his place.

 

http://pages.suddenlink.net/wa5bdu/sio2pc.htm

 

All forms of SIO2PC came from this and his software also free works great.

[Gunstar]

10 hours ago, bandit said:

Nick Kenndy Made the first SIO2PC 1990's and it was an easy build. here is his place.

 

http://pages.suddenlink.net/wa5bdu/sio2pc.htm

 

All forms of SIO2PC came from this and his software also free works great.

This is the schematics  I used to build my combo RS232 SIO2PC/1050-2-PC board back in the day, about 10 years later I re-installed this board internally in one of my 1050 drives with RS232 outputs. I still use it today, it's worked flawlessly for me for decades. I started out with the MS-DOS version of APE and have upgraded to every Windows version since. I highly recommend the APE software, even if it's not free like AspeQT/RespQT. There much more to it like the Prosystem and Imagic as well as many features that the others don't have.

[EddyFree]

 

I have a question here. I've only had a 1050 Drive(got it US Doubled later on) and an XF551 Drive. Since I've never had an 810 disk drive, I was wondering how the 810 handled "Enhanced Density" disks? Does it fail to read them at all or does it read the first 720 sectors only?

 

 

[Gavin1968]

Two great options are the FujiNet (https://www.vintagecomputercenter.com/fujinet) and the SDrive-MAX (https://www.vintagecomputercenter.com/sdrive-max) both will allow you to hook up a physical drive and copy your files over to an image on the internal SD card of the device, or a remote TNFS server for the FujiNet. 

Best,

Gavin

 

[MrFSL]

Hello.

 

I exclusively use Linux. There are many ways to skin this cat. Ultimately you need a drive to read those floppies first.  Then you can make disk images from them.  

 

These disk images can be used in all the above devices as well as in the atari800 emulator in the repos.

 

Ultimately for beginners i would suggest just getting (or making) a sio to serial cable. There is no reason to purchase any software. 

 

Start by getting your disk drive reading the disks on the Atari.  Then we can help you get a SIO2PC adapter or cable. Then we can get you started on the software and methodology. Otherwise it is just information overload with all the possible options. 

 

 

[+Nezgar]

  

On 12/26/2020 at 7:19 PM, dukes909 said:

I haven't lubricated it. Is there a guide on maintaining these drives? I literally just took it out of 25 years of storage.  Seemed to work ok on first few then it doesn't seem to register any more floppies placed in it. Cheers

I've revived a few initially non-working 810's... here's a few tips off the top of my head:

• Use a dry mini touch-up brush to clean out any dust/cobwebs from all the crevaces that most 810's seem to have accumulated.
• Clean the head with a Q-Tip + isopropyl alcohol, let it dry thoroughly and be sure not to touch any on the top felt pad.
• Adjust the spring tension to the next 'higher' notch which might help apply a little extra pressure on the top felt pad.
• Use a little bit of dielectric grease on the rails, apply very conservatively using another q-tip, manually sliding the head assembly back and forth to 'spread it out'. I've found this really makes an 810 purr, without the stereotypical teeth-chattering grinding noise.
• Adjust RPM to 288... ie using SpartaDOS RPM.COM utility. The grass valley power board is much more forgiving than the original analog+power combo board - that one will jump +/- 5RPM with barely a touch...
• Remaining whining and squeaking may be improved with a little 3-in-1 oil in the top pressure spindle, but care needs to be taken to disassemble that to apply a little oil into the bearing, and not getting any on the bottom of the fingers around the edge.

3 hours ago, EddyFree said:

I have a question here. I've only had a 1050 Drive(got it US Doubled later on) and an XF551 Drive. Since I've never had an 810 disk drive, I was wondering how the 810 handled "Enhanced Density" disks? Does it fail to read them at all or does it read the first 720 sectors only?

"Enhanced Density" disks have 128 byte sectors with MFM encoding that is usually used for 256 byte "true" double density. Because the 810's controller is only capable of decoding FM and not MFM, an "Enhanced Density" disk is unreadable in an 810.

 

DOS 2.5 had directory markers to show which files were beyond 720 sectors, but this was merely to show which files would still be accessible using DOS 2.0S on a 1050, not on an 810.

[dukes909]

19 hours ago, MrFSL said:

Hello.

 

I exclusively use Linux. There are many ways to skin this cat. Ultimately you need a drive to read those floppies first.  Then you can make disk images from them.  

 

These disk images can be used in all the above devices as well as in the atari800 emulator in the repos.

 

Ultimately for beginners i would suggest just getting (or making) a sio to serial cable. There is no reason to purchase any software. 

 

Start by getting your disk drive reading the disks on the Atari.  Then we can help you get a SIO2PC adapter or cable. Then we can get you started on the software and methodology. Otherwise it is just information overload with all the possible options. 

 

 

Ok, I have one drive working enough that I listed every file on every disk (on paper - booo) so I know what's where.  I may be buying a second drive soon as well.  The drive that I described as sluggish seems to have problems after I install a disk in it and close the drive door.  The drive may or may not spin when I do a disk directory.  If I fiddle with opening and closing the door it will usually work (usually). 

 

But it works enough now that I indexed everything and ready to move to the next step  - so an SIO2PC adapter or cable?  My PC is a Dell Vostro 3471 (Ubuntu 20) but I also have a Macbook Pro from mid-2010 running Mojave or High Sierra I think. 

 

I can solder and make a cable if that is cheaper $$!!

Cheers to this forum!

Dukester

[MrFSL]

Alright - on the Ubuntu side you can use a free software with GUI called RespeQt.

 

An Ubuntu binary can be downloaded here: (I could build it into a deb file if you really wanted it.)

https://github.com/RespeQt/RespeQt/releases/download/r5.3/RespeQt_r5.3_Ubuntu_18.04_x86_64.tgz

 

If you want to ditch the GUI there is awesome software called sio2bsd that is command line here: (though you have to compile it - but i could provide you a working binary if you wished.)

http://drac030.krap.pl/sio2bsd-2020-12-20.tar.gz

 

There are great devices to connect you SIO port on the Atari to USB/Serial and I bet they work fantastically - some of them are mentioned above, though I have never tried them myself.

 

You can build a cable though if you want - here are some instructions:

https://github.com/pjones1063/AspeQt-2020/blob/master/SIO2PC_Build_Instructions.pdf

 

I bought three of these cables USB/Serial cables from amazon for $10. You can purchase or cut up a SIO cable for the other end - or you can solder/shrink wrap some of these connectors that push onto the pins on the sio port:

https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-7-745288-2.html

 

I think with this option you can have the parts in a day or two and build a cable for around $3 USD?

 

With a little configuration these softwares look like floppy drives to the Atari. You then use some Atari software to image one disk to the next. I happen to like HDSC.EXE but their are several you can use. When you get the cable and software I could walk you through the copying methodology you might use. Again --- many ways to skin that cat.

 

Cheers.

 

**EDIT**

 

You know, on closer inspection --- those pieces push right onto the Serial USB cable firmly. I rang them out with a meter... its a nice connection.

 

So even for folks with zero soldering ability you can make a working cable at home:

 

 

**EDIT #2**

Its actually a really close fit - so probably some non-conductive tape or better yet shrink material - but I just tested this and it works splendidly.

Edited December 29, 2020 by MrFSL

[bandit]

On 12/27/2020 at 4:56 PM, Gunstar said:

This is the schematics  I used to build my combo RS232 SIO2PC/1050-2-PC board back in the day, about 10 years later I re-installed this board internally in one of my 1050 drives with RS232 outputs. I still use it today, it's worked flawlessly for me for decades. I started out with the MS-DOS version of APE and have upgraded to every Windows version since. I highly recommend the APE software, even if it's not free like AspeQT/RespQT. There much more to it like the Prosystem and Imagic as well as many features that the others don't have.

Just looked and he does not have the 2-chip version on the site anymore, that is the one I built and was the first, this new 1 chip looks faster to build.

[Gunstar]

Just now, bandit said:

Just looked and he does not have the 2-chip version on the site anymore, that is the one I built and was the first, this new 1 chip looks faster to build.

Yeah, if I were doing it today, I'd do the one chip version as I believe it handles both SIO and 1050 to PC, like the newer Atarimax ones.

[MrFSL]

31 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

I believe it handles both SIO and 1050 to PC, like the newer Atarimax ones.

Now this is something I have not tried but am interested in. --- Staying specific to Linux machines here, HiassofT's AtariSIO utilities are Linux only solutions providing specialized kernel level drivers and utilities:

https://github.com/HiassofT/AtariSIO

 

From the readme:

 

 

I do not have a compatible cable or device yet but I do have a 1050 so I hope to acquire the hardware and test this in the future. I like the idea of the 1050 connected directly to my modern computer for sure!

 

To the original OP --- there are a handful of tools provided by this AtariSIO package --- several of which I use all the time such as dir2atr. It worth looking at if you have the time. 

 

[EddyFree]

On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 11:42 PM, Nezgar said:

"Enhanced Density" disks have 128 byte sectors with MFM encoding that is usually used for 256 byte "true" double density. Because the 810's controller is only capable of decoding FM and not MFM, an "Enhanced Density" disk is unreadable in an 810.

OK, that makes sense. So that would mean a double-density drive should be able to read the first 720 sectors of an enhanced density disk? What I'm wondering is what causes most of the Truncated enhanced density disk images I come across. I know it can easily be disk copiers that don't read passed sector 720, but was wondering if it could be a hardware situation also.

 

[dukes909]

On 12/28/2020 at 7:26 PM, MrFSL said:

Alright - on the Ubuntu side you can use a free software with GUI called RespeQt.

 

An Ubuntu binary can be downloaded here: (I could build it into a deb file if you really wanted it.)

https://github.com/RespeQt/RespeQt/releases/download/r5.3/RespeQt_r5.3_Ubuntu_18.04_x86_64.tgz

 

If you want to ditch the GUI there is awesome software called sio2bsd that is command line here: (though you have to compile it - but i could provide you a working binary if you wished.)

http://drac030.krap.pl/sio2bsd-2020-12-20.tar.gz

 

There are great devices to connect you SIO port on the Atari to USB/Serial and I bet they work fantastically - some of them are mentioned above, though I have never tried them myself.

 

You can build a cable though if you want - here are some instructions:

https://github.com/pjones1063/AspeQt-2020/blob/master/SIO2PC_Build_Instructions.pdf

 

I bought three of these cables USB/Serial cables from amazon for $10. You can purchase or cut up a SIO cable for the other end - or you can solder/shrink wrap some of these connectors that push onto the pins on the sio port:

https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-7-745288-2.html

 

I think with this option you can have the parts in a day or two and build a cable for around $3 USD?

 

With a little configuration these softwares look like floppy drives to the Atari. You then use some Atari software to image one disk to the next. I happen to like HDSC.EXE but their are several you can use. When you get the cable and software I could walk you through the copying methodology you might use. Again --- many ways to skin that cat.

 

Cheers.

 

**EDIT**

 

You know, on closer inspection --- those pieces push right onto the Serial USB cable firmly. I rang them out with a meter... its a nice connection.

 

So even for folks with zero soldering ability you can make a working cable at home:

 

 

**EDIT #2**

Its actually a really close fit - so probably some non-conductive tape or better yet shrink material - but I just tested this and it works splendidly.

Thanks for this, I ordered the connectors from that te.com site!  BTW, do you know of any more places like this that sell electronic components (resistors, caps, chips) so cheap (and this one has free shipping to boot)?  I have stuck with Jameco for years but I think they are probably high on a lot of things.
 

[MrFSL]

36 minutes ago, dukes909 said:

Thanks for this, I ordered the connectors from that te.com site!  BTW, do you know of any more places like this that sell electronic components (resistors, caps, chips) so cheap (and this one has free shipping to boot)?  I have stuck with Jameco for years but I think they are probably high on a lot of things.

Oh others here would have to answer that one. I am NOT a hardware guy. I had a bag of these kicking around to repair a broken Fujinet and got the part number from the bom for that project.

 

I am, however, thrilled I have been of some service. The other suggestion left here are all valid and I predict you will end up purchasing a handful of these fun devices in the future. This little build will get you going on your project at a rather low learning curve and an extremely low cost in an incredible hurry. Once you familiarize yourself with the advancements that people in this hobby space have come up with you will be blown away with the options available to you. Being a hardware guy, many of the new devices are available for you to build yourself if you prefer that work as well!

 

Just today I played around with atariserver - one of the applications from the AtariSIO project I linked above. This software functions in a similar way to RespeQt or sio2bsd and I had never tried it before. It works really really well and is a compromise between a full blown GUI and the command line (provides a light weight curses UI.) So much fun stuff to play with!!