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Metroidvania for Atari Jaguar - anyone?

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On 1/16/2021 at 5:01 PM, phoboz said:

It should be possible to re-use the engine for any type of run-n-gun, side scrolling action game.

I looked at some videos of Gunlord, and it seems to have one layer using a tile map (which I currently have in this demo, this is the layer the action takes place), and second layer using a large bitmap image, or a series large images (for decoration).

 

This is just how thought about doing it, because the Jaguar's ability to handle really large images (besides from many 16x16 pixel sized tiles, as used in the first layer) is really what differs the Jaguar from the other consumer 16-bit console systems from that time (e.g. SNES, Genesis, which use 16x16 tiles for both layers. The NeoGeo would of course also be able to do how I described, but that was really not aimed at the mass consumer market)

 

However, it can still be a Metroidvania, but in order to make it look something like Gunlord, I really need the help from very professional pixel artist(s). My current focus is to get a very good physics engine, the decoration comes later...

While Gunlord and Metroid look a bit similar on the surface, they are very different. Gunlord/Turrican is  shmup action with lots of sprites on screen and overpowered special weapons. Level design/game design is simpler and linear compared to metroidvania. (level->exit, level->exit, boss and so on....)

 

Metroidvania is more like an action adventure, and thus a lot more ambitious to design.

 

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15 minutes ago, leech said:

I mean I bet we could find some artists.  Though I think most of the ones that hang out on Atari Age are pixel artists.  I can't draw for shit myself.  Ha

If there were so many pixel artists hanging around that could pull off Rayman level graphics, why there is no such game yet? ;-)

 

There are 3 things to consider:

 

1. Rayman artists were not only professionals, they were top notch among professionals. (Thats why there is only one Rayman on Jaguar) 

 

2. Even if there was an artist with comparable capabilities, it would take a lot of time and energy to make all those graphics in spare time. 

 

3. If you are that good to pull off Rayman gfx, probably you are already working as an professional in the industry. Which means you have all the options to make kick ass games for popular platforms, not only way better hardware and software tools, but also the prospect that you can reach thousands and millions of people that can enjoy your work.  On Jaguar, you will be lucky if 100-200 will take notice of your hard work. And even then, probably 50% will lament that it's too "16 bit" looking and they want texture mapped 3D for homebrew games ;)

Edited by agradeneu
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26 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

If there were so many pixel artists hanging around that could pull off Rayman level graphics, why there is no such game yet? ;-)

 

There are 3 things to consider:

 

1. Rayman artists were not only professionals, they were top notch among professionals. (Thats why there is only one Rayman on Jaguar) 

 

2. Even if there was an artist with comparable capabilities, it would take a lot of time and energy to make all those graphics in spare time. 

 

3. If you are that good to pull off Rayman gfx, probably you are already working as an professional in the industry. Which means you have all the options to make kick ass games for popular platforms, not only way better hardware and software tools, but also the prospect that you can reach thousands and millions of people that can enjoy your work.  On Jaguar, you will be lucky if 100-200 will take notice of your hard work. And even then, probably 50% will lament that it's too "16 bit" looking and they want texture mapped 3D for homebrew games ;)

Simple answer, Rayman is not pixel art.  :)  or not what most would conisder that. 

But this could be its own thread instead of clogging up this one. 

Maybe put out an 'homebrew artists wanted' thread?

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1 minute ago, leech said:

Simple answer, Rayman is not pixel art.  :)  or not what most would conisder that. 

But this could be its own thread instead of clogging up this one. 

Maybe put out an 'homebrew artists wanted' thread?

First time I heard that. What is it then? ;-)

 

Pixel Art = handdrawn images and sprites that consist of pixels, hand made animations , frame by frame, or by moving/rotating sprites

 

 

Edited by agradeneu

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19 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

First time I heard that. What is it then? ;-)

 

Pixel Art = handdrawn images and sprites that consist of pixels, hand made animations , frame by frame, or by moving/rotating sprites

 

 

Haha, isn't everything pixel art then?  When I think pixel art, I think specifically of things drawn in programs like Deluxe Paint. 

Something like rogue legacy, or ghost and goblins, etc.  Rayman seems just more like a work of art to me.

Pixel art also generally refers to something with a lower color palette range. 

Though I will happily admit my definition may be wrong, but that is the way I have always seen it defined.  I have also seen the hand drawn art being referred to separately.  

Pixel art isn't always done frame by frame as there are animation programs out there now.  I do remember seeing that done in Dpaint back in the day though.

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36 minutes ago, leech said:

Haha, isn't everything pixel art then?  When I think pixel art, I think specifically of things drawn in programs like Deluxe Paint. 

Something like rogue legacy, or ghost and goblins, etc.  Rayman seems just more like a work of art to me.

Pixel art also generally refers to something with a lower color palette range. 

Though I will happily admit my definition may be wrong, but that is the way I have always seen it defined.  I have also seen the hand drawn art being referred to separately.  

Pixel art isn't always done frame by frame as there are animation programs out there now.  I do remember seeing that done in Dpaint back in the day though.

No, e.g. graphics that uses 3D rendering software is not Pixel Art. But I as you know everything on Pixel Art, it might be time for you to do something practically?

 

Ironically I refer myself as a Pixel Artist, because I draw, I piant and I pixel images. All elements play together. Just an observation after 3 years of practice.

(And I don't use Paint deluxe)

 

 I know the puristic definition of Pixel Art (low color, low res etc.) but does it really matter? If I use a stylus and draw pixel freely, isn't that Pixel Art anymore?

 

But lets go back to the point, you are looking for artists for Rayman graphics:

 

For Rayman like grapics, you will need artist that can do both drawing and painting (for backgrounds, concepts etc.) and "pixel"  (e.g. for sprites). 

Out of my expierence, a good pixel artist should be competent with drawing and painting as well.

 

In recent pixel art games, backgrounds are painted freely, literally like with a brush on a canvas, but you will see the pixels, so it's pixel art style. Technically the backdrops in Rayman were done that way as well. 

 

So you have your answer. 

 

And now lets move on.;-)

 

BTW, if you are no familiar with my works, check out Odynexus (Lynx), some games on Rebooted (Jaguar) and  Gravitic Mines (Jaguar)

 

While Odynexus looks perfectly like Pixel Art, technically I am doing the same as with the Jaguar games. It's the same thing really.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by agradeneu

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1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

Can't be! Pixel Artist don't know how to draw and only use Paintshop Deluxe! :-D

Ha, Deluxe Paint is a program on the Amiga, I did not say Paintshop Deluxe that is something entirely different.

1 hour ago, PFG 9000 said:

What the heck?  Rayman is 100% pixel art.  Here is his sprite sheet, where you can see all those glorious pixels.

 

https://www.spriters-resource.com/playstation/rayman/sheet/119872/

Sprites does not a game make?   Anything that people refer to as 'retro game with pixel art' none of them look like Rayman.  They all look like Amiga (ECS), or Genesis era games. 

To be fair, pretty much anything that isn't created with photographs on a computer is made with pixel drawing.  People don't consider the original Doom as pixel art, but was certainly drawn with a computer, using pixels.

 

But hey, if we have pixel artists, help out with some Jag games?

 

Edit: Pixel art really is defined by low resolution, so you can actually see the pixels, while Rayman on the Jag does run at a fairly low resolution (compared to today) it is in the 32bit+ era where people had access to 16bit or higher color palettes, and could hide rhe pixels very well.  So yeah, I wouldn't consider Rayman a 'pixel art' game, but a rather beatifully hand panted game with sprites.

Edited by leech
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7 hours ago, agradeneu said:

On Jaguar, you will be lucky if 100-200 will take notice of your hard work. 

That's the same problem Saints having! 

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17 minutes ago, JagChris said:

That's the same problem Saints having! 

Ha, weren't there 1000 pre-orders for the JagGD?

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22 minutes ago, JagChris said:

That's the same problem Saints having! 

 

4 minutes ago, leech said:

Ha, weren't there 1000 pre-orders for the JagGD?

 

There are always far more people who will not buy a homebrew game than those who do.

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1 hour ago, leech said:

Ha, Deluxe Paint is a program on the Amiga, I did not say Paintshop Deluxe that is something entirely different.

Sprites does not a game make?   Anything that people refer to as 'retro game with pixel art' none of them look like Rayman.  They all look like Amiga (ECS), or Genesis era games. 

To be fair, pretty much anything that isn't created with photographs on a computer is made with pixel drawing.  People don't consider the original Doom as pixel art, but was certainly drawn with a computer, using pixels.

 

But hey, if we have pixel artists, help out with some Jag games?

 

Edit: Pixel art really is defined by low resolution, so you can actually see the pixels, while Rayman on the Jag does run at a fairly low resolution (compared to today) it is in the 32bit+ era where people had access to 16bit or higher color palettes, and could hide rhe pixels very well.  So yeah, I wouldn't consider Rayman a 'pixel art' game, but a rather beatifully hand panted game with sprites.

Pixelart is not defined by ONE program, that was my point. 

 

Except all the graphics done with 3D modeling, which I heard is the latest thing since...... last year?

 

Doom is a 3D game, but the sprites are handdrawn pixels and animated with frames just like in any 2D game. Modern retro  games are imitating this style.

 

Mark Coleman of the Bitmap Brothers did smooth shadings and realistic details with an 16 color palette. You don't need high color to "hide" pixels and achieve smooth color blendings.

The style is an artistic choice, wether it's more detailed and refined or more simple and raw.

 

 

 

Sure, any artist is just waiting to take lessons from you on pixel art. No, thanks Sherlock.🙃

 

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

There are always far more people who will not buy a homebrew game than those who do.

I think Carl mentioned in a recent interview that Protector SE was his best selling game at around 500 copies and that has been since 2003, which is kind of interesting considering we're talking over the span of what? 17-years? With Skyhammer selling even less than that (as impressive as it is and would have expected to sell even more than Protector SE) apparently has sold just over 400 copies. Thought the pre-orders for the GD was nearing 2000 at this point?

 

As far as pixel art, I too have always associated it with NES Mario Bros. styled graphics and if Rayman on the Jaguar is pixel art (first time I've heard that) then so be it but I wouldn't have considered it as such either so what's the big deal. Seemingly more cartoon-art that was digitized but already has been mentioned, everything has pixels so who gives a shit lol

 

9 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Sure, any artist is just waiting to take lessons from you on pixel art. No, thanks Sherlock.🙃

 

Because that was surely necessary to say.

 

Maybe @phoboz has some more ideas he'd like to share to help get the thread back on track.

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5 minutes ago, Clint Thompson said:

I think Carl mentioned in a recent interview that Protector SE was his best selling game at around 500 copies and that has been since 2003, which is kind of interesting considering we're talking over the span of what? 17-years? With Skyhammer selling even less than that (as impressive as it is and would have expected to sell even more than Protector SE) apparently has sold just over 400 copies. Thought the pre-orders for the GD was nearing 2000 at this point?

 

As far as pixel art, I too have always associated it with NES Mario Bros. styled graphics and if Rayman on the Jaguar is pixel art (first time I've heard that) then so be it but I wouldn't have considered it as such either so what's the big deal. Seemingly more cartoon-art that was digitized but already has been mentioned, everything has pixels so who gives a shit lol

 

Because that was surely necessary to say.

 

Maybe @phoboz has some more ideas he'd like to share to help get the thread back on track.

To be fair I bought both Skyhammer and Protector SE and.. wasn't there also the CD version of Protector with more levels? 

 

I will sure buy this when it releases.  I have bought almost everything out there for the Jag, though I missed out on Battlesphere when it finally had a release and am still annoyed by that.

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58 minutes ago, Clint Thompson said:

I think Carl mentioned in a recent interview that Protector SE was his best selling game at around 500 copies

 

I didn't see him mention the actual number but that game kicks my ass. 

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5 hours ago, Clint Thompson said:

I think Carl mentioned in a recent interview that Protector SE was his best selling game at around 500 copies and that has been since 2003, which is kind of interesting considering we're talking over the span of what? 17-years? With Skyhammer selling even less than that (as impressive as it is and would have expected to sell even more than Protector SE) apparently has sold just over 400 copies. Thought the pre-orders for the GD was nearing 2000 at this point?

 

As far as pixel art, I too have always associated it with NES Mario Bros. styled graphics and if Rayman on the Jaguar is pixel art (first time I've heard that) then so be it but I wouldn't have considered it as such either so what's the big deal. Seemingly more cartoon-art that was digitized but already has been mentioned, everything has pixels so who gives a shit lol

 

Because that was surely necessary to say.

 

Maybe @phoboz has some more ideas he'd like to share to help get the thread back on track.

I have some: Don't discuss things you don't give a shit about (read:know shit about)

 

And discuss Protector SE and the Jaguar GD in their respective threads.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

Edited by agradeneu

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Technically speaking, all home consoles (except for the Vectrex) the image is a matrix of dots of varying brightness. This is the only way you can connect your home console to a TV, because it does not understand the language of vectors.

That's also why the Vectrex must have a built in monitor, because it's a custom built vector monitor, and not a TV.

 

Although more modern game consoles, and high resolution monitors are able to emulate vector graphics faithfully (because the pixels are so dense it's hard to distinguish them) they will never become real vector devices (e.g. a device that has a real vector monitor)

 

In the first pixels based video games, the dots of different intensities were defined by hand, one by one. Later high end graphical workstations used math to generate raster images that looked like vector graphics, but they were still made up of pixels. The later home consoles (including the Atari Jaguar) could also draw vector-like images on a raster display in real-time, rather than showing pre-computed images made on a workstation.

 

A pixel artist in my opinion is a person who can use a combination of different techniques.

- Drawing by hand (e.g Dexule Paint, or Paintbrush)

- Drawing by hand + using filters and compositing techniques (e.g. GIMP)

- Draw using simulated vector graphics (e.g. Inkscape, or Corel Draw)

- A grey zone for me is pre-rendered vector images using a high end graphical workstations (e.g. Maya, Houdini, or LightWave)

 

 

This is just what I think based on my previous experience,...

 

 

Regarding what kind of graphics is suitable for the Metroidvania.

The whole atmosphere (in for example Metroid) makes you feel left alone on a desolate planet. You are exploring deep and dark caves beneath the surface of a seemingly dead planet. The mood is built up by dark music, cold environments, and unpleasant surprises. In order to create such atmosphere, you cannot have to colorful graphics, and to cheerful music, but that doesn't say that the graphics cannot look good. However, it's not supposed to be a competition about which pixel artist can make use of the most amount of colors available on the screen at the same time.

Edited by phoboz
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Just throw in my 2 cents that I'm also interested in grabbing this as much as I am Kings of Edom. Metroid is one of those series that I've always enjoyed quite a bit on Nintendo platforms, and longed for something more like it on an Atari system (Yeah there's Draconus for the 8-bits, but that was only OK to me)

 

Also if you saw Gunlord, check out some of the other games that the same team put together. Their most recent release was Kraut Buster, a Metal Slug type game which also required a lot of pixel work...the Metal Slug run 'n gun would be another great genre to see on the Jag eventually ;)

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On 1/18/2021 at 5:25 PM, agradeneu said:

While Gunlord and Metroid look a bit similar on the surface, they are very different. Gunlord/Turrican is  shmup action with lots of sprites on screen and overpowered special weapons. Level design/game design is simpler and linear compared to metroidvania. (level->exit, level->exit, boss and so on....)

 

Metroidvania is more like an action adventure, and thus a lot more ambitious to design.

 

Turrican is not so far off Metroid as you believe, in fact Metroid on NES was the first inspiration for the first Turrican. The main difference between them is, that Metriod have small sections (pathways between bigger rooms; the rooms itself; tower like structures ...) and could load just the small sections into the memory, while Turrican loaded the whole level. Both have the aspect of discovering the level, find extras and find the exit. Ok, Metriod on the NES is in the end just the one huuuuuge Level and Turrican have worlds and stages. But keep in mind ... the C64 was a limited hardware.

The weapons btw were not so overpowered in Turrican ... it´s a quite hard game (well ... I find it hard at least).

 

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1 hour ago, evisu said:

Turrican is not so far off Metroid as you believe, in fact Metroid on NES was the first inspiration for the first Turrican. The main difference between them is, that Metriod have small sections (pathways between bigger rooms; the rooms itself; tower like structures ...) and could load just the small sections into the memory, while Turrican loaded the whole level. Both have the aspect of discovering the level, find extras and find the exit. Ok, Metriod on the NES is in the end just the one huuuuuge Level and Turrican have worlds and stages. But keep in mind ... the C64 was a limited hardware.

The weapons btw were not so overpowered in Turrican ... it´s a quite hard game (well ... I find it hard at least).

 

Just for curiosity I recently played Super Turrican, Gunlord and Super Metroid. My findings are simple but not superficial.

 

Gunlord/Turrican and Metroid are very different games, only similar on the very surface.

 

As I said, in Gunlord/Turrican you get lots of power ups to shoot lots of sprites. In Metroid  you will need to find new abilties/items that will open up new areas in the game world.

The shoot em up part is more tactical, so to speak, as you start with a single shot. Also, you have empty sections/rooms within the game world, that will change, e.g. filled with enemies/monsters next time you visit them.

The level design is another big difference. Turrican are huge single levels with an exit. As soon as you reach the the exit, the level is won and you won't revisit it. In Gunlord, the levels are more or less linear from left to right and the game shows you where to go with a small bitmap, so you can't get lost. 

 

In Metroid, all mini levels/rooms are connected within a huge Game world, and backtracking to open up alternate paths or sections is part of the design. Design of rooms can change with each visit. In many Metroidvanias you must explore the game world to develope your character, to get stronger for later challenges.

 

So overall, very different games to design, I just checked on Gunlord/Super Turrican and Super Metroid last night for some research.

IMO, I would say a Turrican clone would be easier to design, but I'm not part of this project anyway.

Edited by agradeneu
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15 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Just throw in my 2 cents that I'm also interested in grabbing this as much as I am Kings of Edom. Metroid is one of those series that I've always enjoyed quite a bit on Nintendo platforms, and longed for something more like it on an Atari system (Yeah there's Draconus for the 8-bits, but that was only OK to me)

 

Also if you saw Gunlord, check out some of the other games that the same team put together. Their most recent release was Kraut Buster, a Metal Slug type game which also required a lot of pixel work...the Metal Slug run 'n gun would be another great genre to see on the Jag eventually ;)

Krautbusters is an example what can go wrong when you copy/borrow from a popular game (too much). 

The game is not as good as Metal Slug and it's on the wrong platform, because you can play all Metals Slugs on NeoGeo.

I read many negative comments on it, considering it a poor mans clone of Metal Slug.

Also, the carts are extremely expensive. Its a good game obviously, but compared to the original it falls short, and it's not original enough to stand on it's own feet.

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3 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Krautbusters is an example what can go wrong when you copy/borrow from a popular game (too much). 

The game is not as good as Metal Slug and it's on the wrong platform, because you can play all Metals Slugs on NeoGeo.

I read many negative comments on it, considering it a poor mans clone of Metal Slug.

Also, the carts are extremely expensive. Its a good game obviously, but compared to the original it falls short, and it's not original enough to stand on it's own feet.

My point was more about it would be neat to see a run 'n gun on the Jaguar rather than pouring over the merits/faults of KB - which also borrowed a number of things from Contra, which is what the game's "C-Mode" is. Metal Slug isn't the only concept in the genre, Contra and Gunforce would count too (and Metal Slug 6 wasn't officially done on NG, that was Atomiswave which is an arcadified Dreamcast). 

 

Yeah, KB has some negative comments on it, but also lots of people saying good things about it, demanding the ROM. Complaints about the graphics are minimal from what I've seen, it's mainly complaining about the difficulty and unbalanced boss fights. As a small team, they've improved a lot since their initial NG releases, and they've managed to bring some of their games to mainstream systems. They only developed stuff for the MVS/AES because they enjoyed the system, much like other homebrewers (cost is because brand new MVS carts are always expensive, especially given the numbers you can expect to sell there). 

 

Obviously you won't get exact Metal Slug quality out of a r'ng game unless you have a team of seasoned professionals, but if we were to say that people can't develop for old systems unless they're all AAA-pro level, then we wouldn't have any games to talk about for Atari systems these days, now would we? Same goes with coming up with a completely original game in an established genre. Pretty much everything out there at this point derives certain gameplay elements, features & themes from something in the past, so there will always be comparisons. What matters is how they are handled and if there is any other new "hook" that can improve on what was done.

 

There was supposed to be a r'ng game on the Jaguar years ago called Legion Force Jidai, by the guy who did Mad Bodies, but how far along it got before getting canned, I don't know.

 

Anyways, looking forward to seeing what comes of this MV concept, whether it's more Metroid, more Turrican or finds a way to do something else. 

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

My point was more about it would be neat to see a run 'n gun on the Jaguar rather than pouring over the merits/faults of KB - which also borrowed a number of things from Contra, which is what the game's "C-Mode" is. Metal Slug isn't the only concept in the genre, Contra and Gunforce would count too (and Metal Slug 6 wasn't officially done on NG, that was Atomiswave which is an arcadified Dreamcast). 

 

Yeah, KB has some negative comments on it, but also lots of people saying good things about it, demanding the ROM. Complaints about the graphics are minimal from what I've seen, it's mainly complaining about the difficulty and unbalanced boss fights. As a small team, they've improved a lot since their initial NG releases, and they've managed to bring some of their games to mainstream systems. They only developed stuff for the MVS/AES because they enjoyed the system, much like other homebrewers (cost is because brand new MVS carts are always expensive, especially given the numbers you can expect to sell there). 

 

Obviously you won't get exact Metal Slug quality out of a r'ng game unless you have a team of seasoned professionals, but if we were to say that people can't develop for old systems unless they're all AAA-pro level, then we wouldn't have any games to talk about for Atari systems these days, now would we? Same goes with coming up with a completely original game in an established genre. Pretty much everything out there at this point derives certain gameplay elements, features & themes from something in the past, so there will always be comparisons. What matters is how they are handled and if there is any other new "hook" that can improve on what was done.

 

There was supposed to be a r'ng game on the Jaguar years ago called Legion Force Jidai, by the guy who did Mad Bodies, but how far along it got before getting canned, I don't know.

 

Anyways, looking forward to seeing what comes of this MV concept, whether it's more Metroid, more Turrican or finds a way to do something else. 

 

 

 

You miss my point - Kraut Busters is an example of an AAA level indie game, copying mostly from a cult classic Metal Slug, with the pitfall of being compared to it. 

Now, titles like KB create lot of hype and fans are expecting AAA level quality from an indie product - however, these sky high expectations come for a price.

 

Firstable, games like KB were backed by a Kickstarter campaign, usually devs making big promises and getting money from fans in advance.

But, then  you have to deal with huge delays: KB release was 3 years later, which disappointed even the most hardcore fan audience.

I don't need to tell the story of Paprium here. ;-)

 

All in all, a scenario like KB or Paprium is totally unrealitsic for Jaguar, and really nothing you want to expierence.

It just should tell you how risky it is to produce a title like KB, and mind you, the NEOGEO is a much more renowned platform than the Jaguar.

 

The amount that goes into those pixel artworks is insane, and nobody could or want do that without some form of financial backing.

NG Dev are an independent studio but they operate basically at a ver professional level. You have nothing like that on Jaguar.

 

As far as Legion Force Jidai goes, that never went beyond a title screen and a character animation.

 

Overall, its unrealistic to expect something at the level of Metal Slug or KB for the Jaguar, I'm sorry to tell you that. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by agradeneu

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