US 600XL & UAV, composite or luma/chroma

[+hloberg]

I'm working on installing UAV in my US 600XL and I have a question.

I read that the 600XL does not have the circuitry for luma/chroma. But the UAV seems to have you hooking up the luma/chroma with the composite. I'm confused.

If there is luma/chroma I want to make this S-Video. If not, I'll just make it composite.

Note: looking at the schematics it also looks like the luma/chroma circuitry is missing for the US model. ???

 

[shoestring]

You'll need a DIN 5 socket and the UAV, see Manterola's post.

 

 

btw..  600xl has the best video circuit of all XE/XLs

[manterola]

1 hour ago, hloberg said:

I'm working on installing UAV in my US 600XL and I have a question.

I read that the 600XL does not have the circuitry for luma/chroma. But the UAV seems to have you hooking up the luma/chroma with the composite. I'm confused.

 

If there is luma/chroma I want to make this S-Video. If not, I'll just make it composite.

Note: looking at the schematics it also looks like the luma/chroma circuitry is missing for the US model. ???

 

The output circuitry for lumma and chroma is missing in the US version of the 600XL. The DIN connector is also missing.

However, UAV takes these signals (lum0, lum1, etc. chroma) plus sync from GTIA (or more specifically from the CD4050). 

So the output circuit is missing, but that doesn't mean that the lumma and chroma are not present.

 

In conclusion, you can have composite AND chroma AND lumma  for the "made for USA" 600XL .

 

Here you can see another person who installed the UAV:

and another approach: instead of on top of the CD4050 the UAV is put beside and no jumpers used (low profile installation).

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by manterola

[+DrVenkman]

tl;dr: the UAV provides composite AND chroma/luma outputs using signals more or less straight from the GTIA chip, regardless of the crap original circuitry in the Atari. Every A8 NTSC or PAL GTIA produces the same output signals so the UAV will work in any of them. 

[bfollowell]

2 hours ago, shoestring said:

btw..  600xl has the best video circuit of all XE/XLs

 

 

I just recently got my first 600XL. I'd never had any experience with them whatsoever. Of course, being a U.S. model, it had no monitor port, so I used RF to check it out and confirm it was working well before I upgraded the memory and added the UAV and monitor port. I was shocked at how much better its RF looked than my two 800XLs. It's still nowhere near as good as the UAV and monitor port now that I have in, but much better than any RF output I ever recall seeing on any A8 before.

 

[flashjazzcat]

15 hours ago, shoestring said:

btw..  600xl has the best video circuit of all XE/XLs

Agree. When you are lucky enough to have the complete circuit pre-installed (i.e. PAL), removing one cap (as well as wiring up chroma/luma) is usually all that's required to obtain excellent Y/C video. I worked on two ostensibly identical 600XLs last week and one required a 1nf filter cap on the chroma line to get rid of some colour bleed, but it's now comparable to the other machine which didn't need any filtering at all.

 

[+hloberg]

thanks for the info, that clears up a lot.

one problem I have with S-Video is I have one monitor that still supports S-Video and it's rather old. If it goes new US TVs rarely support S-Video any more.

[+hloberg]

39 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Agree. When you are lucky enough to have the complete circuit pre-installed (i.e. PAL), removing one cap (as well as wiring up chroma/luma) is usually all that's required to obtain excellent Y/C video. I worked on two ostensibly identical 600XLs last week and one required a 1nf filter cap on the chroma line to get rid of some colour bleed, but it's now comparable to the other machine which didn't need any filtering at all.

 

I watched your videos on the 600XL and found the videos very helpful, thanks.

[+hloberg]

thanks all. I hooked test hooked up just the composite and it's absolutely beautiful. I really can't image the S-Video being much better. 

One thing, I bought the kit and I realllly messed up an lot of the solderers. barely touch the board and it goes all wonky. But, if I can't fix that I can order a new finished board.

[+hloberg]

I got the UAV kit so I assembled the board myself. I got the kit because I wasn't sure about the clearance on the 600XL. I did end up soldering it up with everything since clearance didn't seem to be an issue after all.

But, problem. If I just touch the board the screen goes white. Jiggle the board and it goes away. BUT, If I don't touch the board the screen goes white anyway after a few minutes! If I then jiggle the board it will go away for several minutes to a long time but will come back. I have checked, re-checked and re-soldered every solder on the pins, the socket and the everything else. I even checked and re-flowed the socket that the UAV plugs into on the motherboard. I'm not the worlds best solderer but I'm also not the worst. Any thoughts?

[+DrVenkman]

You probably have a cold solder joint; when you jiggle the board, the components connect correctly, but as it heats up with run time, or when the board gently sags due to incomplete solder joints or when you've jostled or moved the computer, that connection breaks again.

 

Short of buying a new UAV (complete plug-in unit rather than the kit this time), you should use bright light and magnification to look over the solder joints very, very carefully, reflowing each one with the tiniest soldering iron tip you have. Be sure you haven't added too much solder and mistaken a "blob" around the pin and pad for a solid joint! Remove any excess with solder braid or a solder sucker and inspect the joints again - re-do any that you need to. Verify with a multi-meter that you don't have any accidental solder bridges between two adjacent neighboring pins. 

 

Good luck. 

[+hloberg]

30 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

You probably have a cold solder joint; when you jiggle the board, the components connect correctly, but as it heats up with run time, or when the board gently sags due to incomplete solder joints or when you've jostled or moved the computer, that connection breaks again.

 

Short of buying a new UAV (complete plug-in unit rather than the kit this time), you should use bright light and magnification to look over the solder joints very, very carefully, reflowing each one with the tiniest soldering iron tip you have. Be sure you haven't added too much solder and mistaken a "blob" around the pin and pad for a solid joint! Remove any excess with solder braid or a solder sucker and inspect the joints again - re-do any that you need to. Verify with a multi-meter that you don't have any accidental solder bridges between two adjacent neighboring pins. 

 

Good luck. 

thanks, will do. I still have a lot to learn about soldering. I do have some blobs that might be what's wrong. Also, I need a real needle point for my iron. The point I'm dealing with is a bit too big.

Oh, and buying a new board is on my list, if I have too messed up this one, since I now know it will fit without a problem.

FYI: I am documenting this.

Edited January 30, 2021 by hloberg

[bfollowell]

Also, keep in mind that you don't have to replace your 4050 if you'd like to keep RF out in addition to the UAV output. I soldered a socket on top of my 4050 so that I could keep it in place and still install the UAV. So now I have a monitor port for the beautiful UAV output, as well as the original RF output. Though I'll likely never use RF again, it's nice to know that it's still there if I want it.

 

[+hloberg]

Well, I give up. I broke the board trying to redo all my solders. I redid them all for the 3rd time and no change. the 4th try I broke the legs. I'm starting to think maybe this wasn't me, maybe. maybe a chip was bad.

But for now, it's going to sit while I decide what I want to do; order a complete UAV, build my own composite, save up for a Sophia? I'll think about it.

[+Stephen]

God damn it.  I wish we could have a get together for a simple soldering class.  This is kindergarten level shit but all I keep reading is people killing 1970s era machines because they can't solder 3 or 4 wires for an upgrade.  It's not like we have an easy supply of spare parts for these machines.  How can we stop the slaughter?

[_The Doctor__]

I get beat down for this many a time, but I always suggest learning to solder on broken electronic crap you are sending to e-cycle or were going to be trashing anyway, You know... the smoke came out of this chinese cheap throw away thing with tiny crappy thin traces etc... if you can solder on that stuff (not to fix just to practice) then your ready to move to some older electronics of thicker traces etc.. and as you get better you can touch 130XE traces without killing them

 

as always, try a trace repair kit using high temp epoxy if need be...

 

Remember the Atari is from a time of low temperature lead (PB) solder... rohs lead free silver bearing solders etc are high temperature and your asking for trouble using those modern solders and high temp soldering irons! Get adjustable irons and use low temp solders!!!!!!!!!

[_The Doctor__]

HLOBERG, where are you located? If in the USA I am sure we or someone can meat up with you and help out the situation and develop some skills with you...

[+Stephen]

6 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

I get beat down for this many a time, but I always suggest learning to solder on broken electronic crap you are sending to e-cycle or were going to be trashing anyway, You know... the smoke came out of this chinese cheap throw away thing with tiny crappy thin traces etc... if you can solder on that stuff (not to fix just to practice) then your ready to move to some older electronics of thicker traces etc.. and as you get better you can touch 130XE traces without killing them

 

as always, try a trace repair kit using high temp epoxy if need be...

 

Remember the Atari is from a time of low temperature lead (PB) solder... rohs lead free silver bearing solders etc are high temperature and your asking for trouble using those modern solders and high temp soldering irons! Get adjustable irons and use low temp solders!!!!!!!!!

Dude - I can take a 140 watt soldering iron, leave the tip on for 30 seconds, press it hard against the PCB for 30 seconds, and not lift a trace.  How the absolute hell does this shit happen?  I want to see video of it.  I can use my 240VAC 50 Amp TIG welder and not pull traces from a 130XE PCB.

 

I demand to see video of how people are fucking up these machines.  Because I don't think I could do it blindfolded with my right hand tied behind my back while in a centrifuge.

[+hloberg]

I really don't think it was the solder joints after thinking about it. If it was then when I re-flowed them something should have changed. It never did. I think there was a bad chip on the UAV. But since I did the soldering on the board of the legs, etc, I can't prove it.

By the way, I just broke a foot off the UAV board. That had nothing to do with soldering but just plain clumsiness. I slipped and jammed the UAV board on my table and broke the leg that way.

My solder skills are OK. I have soldered game boards, I added 64k to my 600XL with no issue, I once removed the chips from a TI-99 then remounted the same chips on sockets and didn't damage one. Oh, i also built my S-Drive for my 600XL from scratch. I'm just going to mark this down as 'one of those things'.

Even though the picture was really good I didn't like the way the UAV sat on the resistors in front of it in the 600xl which caused the board not to seat level. And if you added the 2nd socket to rise above the resistors it caused the UAV to be tippy and jam up against the bottom of the keyboard. The way I should did the UAV was forgo the legs and just solder it straight in to the board. 'IF' I go UAV again that's the way I'll do it.

I may just build a composite board from scratch. I can tap off the lines to the RF and make a simple amp using a +5, a transistor and some diodes and resistors. I've seen a couple schematics floating around for such a thing. May not be as sharp but it'll be a least as good as was in the original PAL.  On the 600xl schematic they show a +5 and a line that has the color sync, lum0-3 and color to an amplifier going to the RF. Unfortunately they don't detail what's in the RF module, that I can find anyway.

Edited January 31, 2021 by hloberg

[+hloberg]

actually I have been rethinking this whole 600XL thing. I might just get a Fujinet, an ultimate 1mb and a sophia & just trip this thing out. Or maybe i'll just get another Atari & trip it out instead & use this one as spare. I going take this as an opportunity to rethink this.  

Edited January 31, 2021 by hloberg

[Mazzspeed]

Well...

 

I found a 600XL for a good price available in the US and was considering buying it, I didn't realize the US version of the 600XL doesn't have a monitor port.

 

I was prepared to perform the needed tweaks to implement a good chroma/luma output, but that's difficult when there's no port at all. Considering I live in PAL land I may have to keep looking for a PAL model...

[bfollowell]

7 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

Well...

 

I found a 600XL for a good price available in the US and was considering buying it, I didn't realize the US version of the 600XL doesn't have a monitor port.

 

I was prepared to perform the needed tweaks to implement a good chroma/luma output, but that's difficult when there's no port at all. Considering I live in PAL land I may have to keep looking for a PAL model...

 

I went to college for computer/industrial electronics and worked as a bench tech my last year in college before moving over to the auto industry for immensely better pay and benefits, but that was thirty years ago. I just picked up my first in almost three decades soldering iron and rework station a year ago, so I'm far from a pro. I'd consider myself upper mediocre. Keeping all that in mind, the entire monitor port project (switch box removal, monitor port install, UAV install) only took me about thirty minutes, not counting disassembling the 600XL. It really wasn't that bad at all so, unless you have zero soldering skills, I wouldn't be too scared off at the prospect of tackling this project. Now, no insult to @hloberg, because it isn't for everyone, and even the best of us can have an off-day, but this really was a breeze of a project.

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by bfollowell

[Mazzspeed]

7 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

 

I went to college for computer/industrial electronics and worked as a bench tech my last year in college before moving over to the auto industry for immensely better pay and benefits, but that was thirty years ago. I just picked up my first in almost three decades soldering iron and rework station a year ago, so I'm far from a pro. I'd consider myself upper mediocre. Keeping all that in mind, the entire monitor port project (switch box removal, monitor port install, UAV install) only took me about thirty minutes, not counting disassembling the 600XL. It really wasn't that bad at all so, unless you have zero soldering skills, I wouldn't be too scared off at the prospect of tackling this project. Now, no insult to @hloberg, because it isn't for everyone, and even the best of us can have an off-day, but this really was a breeze of a project.

 

I repair laptops, I have all the gear and soldering isn't an issue. Can you add a monitor port to the 600XL?

[BillC]

20 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

Well...

 

I found a 600XL for a good price available in the US and was considering buying it, I didn't realize the US version of the 600XL doesn't have a monitor port.

 

I was prepared to perform the needed tweaks to implement a good chroma/luma output, but that's difficult when there's no port at all. Considering I live in PAL land I may have to keep looking for a PAL model...

It's the same PCB used for NTSC/PAL models, just different parts installed, so the footprint for the DIN monitor jack is there.

If installing a UAV the missing components other than the monitor jack aren't needed, and it supplies better output than the OEM circuit

 

PS: The 600XL monitor port pads are under the RF channel selector switch, once it is removed the monitor port can be added there. The hole in the case will need to be enlarged as well.

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by BillC

[Mazzspeed]

16 minutes ago, BillC said:

It's the same PCB used for NTSC/PAL models, just different parts installed, so the footprint for the DIN monitor jack is there.

If installing a UAV the missing components other than the monitor jack aren't needed, and it supplies better output than the OEM circuit

 

PS: The 600XL monitor port pads are under the RF channel selector switch, once it is removed the monitor port can be added there. The hole in the case will need to be enlarged as well.

 

Hmmm. OK.

 

Thanks for that. I'm happy to fit a UAV, the thing is: That costs money and I want a U1MB and SIDE3, and that's money best spent on those two devices, and I know the 600XL has the best video circuitry of all the A8's via chroma/lumina - So if I can just add the port, that would be beneficial until I get the funds for a UAV or similar.

 

EDIT: As I really want a Sophia 1/2.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Mazzspeed