Gunstar Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: There's actually not that many people actually using floppies anymore, and the reason is because they weren't the best solution even in the day (although they were vastly better than cassette) - That's like getting your 56 Chevy and fitting seatbelts and power assisted brakes, it's still a 56 Chevy, it's just more practical for today's roads. The C64 Maxi isn't really for the enthusiast, I never bought one as I can make the same thing using a RPi. The Maxi is more for the person that wants to plug their device into a modern flat panel display and quickly and easily reminisce back to their childhood, or satisfy some 8bit curiosity cheaply. The Ultimate 64 is the device for the enthusiast, with the chipset recreated in hardware using FPGA with numerous advantages. In this situation I see the re implementation as a great thing as our old 30yo devices are starting to age somewhat now and it's community driven solutions like the Ultimate 64 that are going to keep 8bit computing alive for future generations beyond simple emulation. I'm one of the few and the proud that still use multiple floppy drives and a cassette deck, as well as all the latest devices and loading at divisor 0 speeds. But I am a hardware guy and fan, and like using hardware, and I figure if there's one obsolete piece of computer at the center still anyway, if I'm using it, I might as well use all the obsolete stuff. I have patience, and I like to just sit sometimes and watch "the wheels on the bus go round and round..." O also like repairing and maintaining hardware, and then use it when it's fixed. I'll continue to enjoy and have the old drives integrated with the new tech drives as I do now until I can no longer replace floppies and cassettes and what I have wears out. Or I can no longer get or run out of essential parts for the hardware. I use the new hardware more for files and not ATR's and for speed and convenience when I don't have time to enjoy "watching the paint dry" or haven't yet transferred to floppy or tape. I like using my tape also because I upgraded it for turbo loading and can load my tapes almost as fast as standard 810 speed floppy disk, and definitely faster than CBM 1541 speed! It's fun to see that from an Atari deck, which I believe was notorious in the industry for being one of or the slowest. Of course my disk drives are also upgraded for higher capacity and/or speeds I use when I can. I can load a game direct streaming from Poland at Divisor 0 127Kbps via Fujinet, and I'll still load up an original speed Atari cassette in my 1010 when I feel like it. Edited January 31, 2021 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, Gunstar said: I'm one of the few and the proud that still use multiple floppy drives and a cassette deck, as well as all the latest devices and loading at divisor 0 speeds. But I am a hardware guy and fan, and like using hardware, and I figure if there's one obsolete piece of computer at the center still anyway, if I'm using it, I might as well use all the obsolete stuff. I have patience, and I like to just sit sometimes and watch "the wheels on the bus go round and round..." O also like repairing and maintaining hardware, and then use it when it's fixed. I'll continue to enjoy and have the old drives integrated with the new tech drives as I do now until I can no longer replace floppies and cassettes and what I have wears out. Or I can no longer get or run out of essential parts for the hardware. I use the new hardware more for files and not ATR's and for speed and convenience when I don't have time to enjoy "watching the paint dry" or haven't yet transferred to floppy or tape. I like using my tape also because I upgraded it for turbo loading and can load my tapes almost as fast as standard 810 speed floppy disk, and definitely faster than CBM 1541 speed! It's fun to see that from an Atari deck, which I believe was notorious in the industry for being one of or the slowest. Agreed. I still have a 1541 (upgraded with JiffyDOS as the standard CBM DOS kernel routines were a joke, if not a mistake that originated from poor communication between design and manufacturing) and I use it from time to time. Although I am finding it far harder to source reliable media for the device anymore. I never had a problem with the 1541's speed as I never, ever, used the standard CBM DOS. Even as a kid I had some sort of fast loader cart (FC III followed by AR IV) and later on upgraded to JiffyDOS. There was no way I was not only putting up with the standard CBM speeds, but using that (lack of) DOS which was essentially just BASIC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 5 hours ago, Nezgar said: Fun fact about AtariBlast! is that if programmed to a 1MB AtariMax cart (or equivalent workalike such as ultimate cart) it will actually run on a 16KB 600XL. ? (not sure about 16KB 400?) All the extra game data being in banked ROM instead of extended RAM... It so happened there was this vintage computing public display put on locally - and the only Atari 8-bit computer running there was a 16K Atari 400 - so I popped in a 8mbit flashcart of AtariBlast! - and it ran fine. Rather a coincidence that the game was finished and this display was on, about a month afterwards... Of course I knew it'll run fine - since there was a 5200 version of AtariBlast! developed at the same time. Harvey 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: Agreed. I still have a 1541 (upgraded with JiffyDOS as the standard CBM DOS kernel routines were a joke, if not a mistake that originated from poor communication between design and manufacturing) and I use it from time to time. Although I am finding it far harder to source reliable media for the device anymore. I never had a problem with the 1541's speed as I never, ever, used the standard CBM DOS. Even as a kid I had some sort of fast loader cart (FC III followed by AR IV) and later on upgraded to JiffyDOS. There was no way I was not only putting up with the standard CBM speeds, but using that (lack of) DOS which was essentially just BASIC. I only had my original 1050 drive, single speed (~19Kbps) with it's "enhanced density" 130K format, DOS 2.5 for about six months before I made my first-ever hardware upgrade back in '86-87 by installing ICD's US Doubler with 3x57Kbps and true 180K double density myself. Of course it came with the SpartaDOS Construction Set with versions 1.0-3.1 or 3.2 and I never looked back (I mean to a lesser DOS's, not slower speeds when loading). MS-DOS command line structure and batch files and 3xspeed floppy drives. I of course notched the disks with a hole puncher (and still do) for double-sided "flippy" 360K disk. These days my 1050's have Happy enhancements that do that and copy commercial disks, etc. Edited January 31, 2021 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nezgar Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 13 minutes ago, Gunstar said: ICD's US Doubler with 3x57Kbps 2.74x52K actually... almost 3x. https://atariage.com/forums/topic/279578-indus-doubler/?do=findComment&comment=4046634 Although that is at least for the raw sector transfer speed. This reminds me I've been meaning measure "overall" speed over a whole disk read taking into account inter-sector delays etc, it may very well be 3x. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Nezgar said: 2.74x52K actually... almost 3x. https://atariage.com/forums/topic/279578-indus-doubler/?do=findComment&comment=4046634 Although that is at least for the raw sector transfer speed. This reminds me I've been meaning measure "overall" speed over a whole disk read taking into account inter-sector delays etc, it may very well be 3x. Yes, I know but for the sake expediency I generally just use the advertising speed claims. I'm actually waiting on upgrades to arrive from @tf_hh for my 2 Indus GT's and 1 CA-2001 clone to upgrade them with syncromesh or possibly supersyncromesh speeds, I'll upgrade the roms on them too. It's taking forever with COVID-19 to arrive, the upgrades may still be stuck in Europe. tf_hh even sent out emails to people who purchased from him possibly needing confirmation to the postal authorities that we had not received them yet. So, it may be a while... Edited January 31, 2021 by Gunstar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 33 minutes ago, Gunstar said: I only had my original 1050 drive, single speed (~19Kbps) with it's "enhanced density" 130K format, DOS 2.5 for about six months before I made my first-ever hardware upgrade back in '86-87 by installing ICD's US Doubler with 3x57Kbps and true 180K double density myself. Of course it came with the SpartaDOS Construction Set with versions 1.0-3.1 or 3.2 and I never looked back (I mean to a lesser DOS's, not slower speeds when loading). MS-DOS command line structure and batch files and 3xspeed floppy drives. I of course notched the disks with a hole puncher (and still do) for double-sided "flippy" 360K disk. These days my 1050's have Happy enhancements that do that and copy commercial disks, etc. Ah, see I lived on the edge! I used to pinch floppies from school and use scissors to cut the notch for flippies. These days I really have no need to copy commercial software, it's all available at the click of a button. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: These days I really have no need to copy commercial software, it's all available at the click of a button. Neither do I, I've never used my Happy enhanced 1050's yet to copy commercial software. I got them for the double-density and high-speed enhancements, but it's there. a running, cracked version of most everything can just be downloaded as you say, and I just write them to floppies if they are disk images, in enhanced speed format if the program can load that way. or to my CF/SD card drives HDD or SIO, if they are files. Edited January 31, 2021 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: Ah, see I lived on the edge! I used to pinch floppies from school and use scissors to cut the notch for flippies. There have been times without the good old hole puncher where I have resorted to blades or scissors, and they worked most times I had to do that, but they always look ugly compared to the clean cuts of a disk notcher or half-hole punch. So I used/use the latter when I can. But I never felt the need to install a write-protect switch on my drives to write both sides of disks without notches. I have the option to shut it off in software with the Happy 1050's and I can switch write-protect on or off with the press of a button on my Indus GT's and clone. Edited January 31, 2021 by Gunstar typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, Gunstar said: Neither do I, I've never used my Happy enhanced 1050's yet to copy commercial software. I got them for the double-density and high-speed enhancements, but it's there. a running, cracked version of most everything can just be downloaded as you say, and I just write them to floppies if they are disk images, in enhanced speed format if the program can load that way. or to my CF/SD card drives HDD or SIO, if they are files. Running JiffyDOS my 1541 benchmarks at 10x faster than standard CBM DOS at 35Kbps. I can bench higher by tweaking the interleave gap size, but then compatibility suffers. I remember in the day setting two 1541's to copy disks on their own as smart drives while we played games, we thought we were so clever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 5 hours ago, CharlieChaplin said: I rarely play Star Raiders and it does not matter to me that it is considered to be a killer app Hard to believe it was developed in 1979 and only requires 8KB RAM. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 1 hour ago, hloberg said: Not a big deal copying in a new OS to RAM on the XL & XE line, just slow. The alternate firmware could be run from a U1MB if installed, or a SYSCHECK on systems with PBI/ECI. The OS could also be loaded to RAM using a parallel storage device, if no PBI/ECI this could be cartridge based. None of these would be called slow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Mazzspeed said: Running JiffyDOS my 1541 benchmarks at 10x faster than standard CBM DOS at 35Kbps. I can bench higher by tweaking the interleave gap size, but then compatibility suffers. I remember in the day setting two 1541's to copy disks on their own as smart drives while we played games, we thought we were so clever. Once I install the extra ram in my Indus GT's synchromesh will work at about 38K, and if the upgrade install isn't enough for Super Synchromesh, that I'll upgrade it more, then I'll get greater than 60Kbps out of them anyway. I think I can upgrade the roms on my Happy drives to make them faster too, right now they run about 38Kbps too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfollowell Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 4 hours ago, Gunstar said: Well, it came out as PD software in the early 90's when the 8-bit was all but dead commercially and most people had moved on to newer computers and there was no nostalgia community involved yet. So it doesn't surprise me that it is widely unknown to people even today. I never thought of it this way before, but you're right. For something to be retro, to have a resurgence, there must inevitably be a "dead" period. Things get old, or at least get commonplace, then they're surpassed, then they die, then, after enough time, nostalgia kicks in, then, sometimes, they get downright popular again. I really wish I'd had the time, money, and interest to buy up a bunch of Ataris and related hardware and software during the dead period! ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Mazzspeed said: Running JiffyDOS my 1541 benchmarks at 10x faster than standard CBM DOS at 35Kbps. I can bench higher by tweaking the interleave gap size, but then compatibility suffers. I remember in the day setting two 1541's to copy disks on their own as smart drives while we played games, we thought we were so clever. Just for fun... No HW modifications with the exception of a drop-in, plug-and-play 64 KB RamCharger board, and SDX as host OS (Indus/GT, gram-by-gram, byte-for-byte, likely the best drive ever made for the A8!) That would be extending the additional "RAM" question into the disk-drive domain, I guess... Edited February 1, 2021 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 5 hours ago, drac030 said: @mono wrote something like this, you can have up to 9 "desktops", i.e. up to 9 virtual Ataris loaded simultaneously. Of course only one is "running". You can switch between them using the keyboard. From what I can see, this program is unpublished, it rests in the repository, the author must be asked why it has not been made public This would be KICK-ASS !!! I wonder why not being released, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 6 hours ago, Gunstar said: That reminds me of Snapshot for Atari's. A couple versions of it came on the Atari Interface Magazine monthly disk volume 4 Fall 1992 and apparently a column on it from the August 92 AIM. I found several versions online at one point, but can only find V3 ATR on my PC ATM, attached below. It allows more than one program in memory (extended memory needed) to switch between on the fly. Works best with SpartaDOS and HDD that can hold 10 programs in virtual memory. Documentation for it is on the ATR. Snapshot 3.0.atr 130.02 kB · 6 downloads This is SO cool! NEVER heard of this before! Let's give a spin, and see how it behaves with recent SDX incarnations... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Faicuai said: Just for fun... No HW modifications with the exception of a drop-in, plug-and-play 64 KB RamCharger board, and SDX as host OS (Indus/GT, gram-by-gram, byte-for-byte, likely the best drive ever made for the A8!) That would be extending the additional "RAM" question into the disk-drive domain, I guess... I can only hear audio, I can't see the clips? They also made the Indus GT for the C64, it was claimed it was 400% faster. I think JiffyDOS and a 40k ram expansion in a 1541 probably would have been just as fast with a better DOS. I've never seen the C64 variant in real life, they were stupid expensive and as a result are now very rare. Edited February 1, 2021 by Mazzspeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: I can only hear audio, I can't see the clips? The likely explanation for that is on the thread. Here, for quick access: However, these are a couple of .MOV clips, which will require HEVC codec for playback. On Windows-10, you simply down-load them and play them back locally, assuming HEVC codec-pack is present. They are .MOV because they come from either my iPhone or my iPad Pro... You will see not just the drive in action, but actual on-screen command execution on SDX, where you can hand-time the readout of 45+ KBytes file. Edited February 1, 2021 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Faicuai said: The likely explanation for that is on the thread. Here, for quick access: However, these are a couple of .MOV clips, which will require HEVC codec for playback. On Windows-10, you simply down-load them and play them back locally, assuming HEVC codec-pack is present. They are .MOV because they come from either my iPhone or my iPad Pro... They work under Chrome, FF blocks them. I know that on the C64 I can get around 85K over the serial bus using my CF mass storage in benchmarking, but that's in no way emulating a 1541, so isn't limited in the same way a real cycle accurate drive would be limited. What's that device you have all your SIO devices plugged into? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: They work under Chrome, FF blocks them. I know that on the C64 I can get around 85K over the serial bus using my CF mass storage in benchmarking, but that's in no way emulating a 1541, so isn't limited in the same way a real cycle accurate drive would be limited. What's that device you have all your SIO devices plugged into? On Atari's SIO, and enabling PC-Link drivers on SDX, you will reach sustained 110Kbps effective (actually close to 12 KBytes / sec of throughput). That is the SIO hub (4+1) that cleans-up your SIO topology, and also enables Pokey Divisors 1/0 to run for all devices connected, all day long, including your host computer (zero modifications required). There you can see how or why SIO is related to USB's design / concept. (Joe Decuir) Edited February 1, 2021 by Faicuai 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 1 minute ago, Faicuai said: On Atari's SIO, and enabling PC-Link drivers on SDX, you will reach sustained 110Kbps effective (actually close to 12 KBytes / sec of throughput). That is the SIO hub (4+1) that cleans-up your SIO topology, and also enables Pokey Divisors 1/0 to run for all devices connected, all day long, including your host computer (zero modifications required). There you can see how or why SIO is related to USB's design / concept. (Joe Decuir) Interesting. Is that Draconus.xex file the one that's roughly 31k in size? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 1 minute ago, Mazzspeed said: Interesting. Is that Draconus.xex file the one that's roughly 31k in size? 45 Kbytes. Second video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Faicuai said: 45 Kbytes. Second video. Is this the file? https://wowroms.com/en/roms/atari-800/draconus-xex/74510.html EDIT: It's a zipped file, I see. EDIT2: That file I linked is ~33k unzipped? Edited February 1, 2021 by Mazzspeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: Is this the file? https://wowroms.com/en/roms/atari-800/draconus-xex/74510.html EDIT: It's a zipped file, I see. Second video shows the "console" end of the session, where you can see the directory of the file read from Indus/GT drive, and the file (and its size) there. It is then read with a COPY command on SDX, which includes DOS and low-level overhead during I/O operation. The whole operation can be timed, by simply looking at the screen, and the command's start and end. I have noticed that I/O-time overhead, when reading DOS-allocated content (and drive sectors, etc.), is HIGH on Atari... per my estimations, about 20% or maybe more. This is NOT the case, however, when transferring over SIO in "packet" mode with PC-Link drivers (also on SDX). (Let me see if I can find it on the A8's HD and post it here...) (EDIT: found it, attached!) Draconus-CZ.xex Edited February 1, 2021 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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