Ultimate Controller (Again)

[Shawn]

48 minutes ago, Zonie said:

You continually misinterpret or inject your assumptions about me, my abilities, and my goal here. I have no desire to enter a dick size competition with you. To clarify, it's not that I don't have the means or the skill. I don't have the time or desire. Countless hours of coding is not my thing. I did enough of that in the past. Hardware and PCB design are my thing.

Regarding my past contribution to technology, I'm not talking about making a controller attached to your PC. I co-developed enabling technology that allowed the microprocessor inside of it to break 300Mhz and allow the continuance of Moore's law way beyond expectation. I only mention this because you appear to assume I'm some adult kid still living in mom's basement who doesn't have any technical skills. I've said it before, You are welcome to ignore this topic if you have nothing positive to add but you cannot seem to help yourself bring negativity, judging by your content history. You even were negative about Edladdin's controllers at the beginning, and look at them now. You had disdain for the inclusion of the Yamaha in the XM, yet people want that chip, and the work being done with it is amazing. The list goes on.

Why do these technical and hobby forums always have to be full of kids who cannot make nice in the sandbox?

 

WTF are you talking about? You are totally off the rails here. There is no controller happening and there is no games for that controller that won't exist. Get over it. I don't care what you have done. You enjoying your XM with Yamaha sound supported games? Nope. You have no desire to enter a dick size competition yet in the next sentence and following paragraph you do so with a resume of things that I couldn't care less about. I'm happy your happy with your work in whatever it is you do. That means nothing when it comes to this non-existent, un-needed 7800 controller and the non-existent games that will never be programmed that would need it. Just stop. You're making yourself look broken.

 

  I have no assumptions about you, I couldn't care less about you personally. I've been speaking this whole time to the lack of merit to this entire idea and but that if you are so sure of it's need and mass appeal that you should go ahead and build it letting us all know when it's ready and what software (that doesn't and won't exist) requires this ultimate controller. The idea didn't jive the first time you brought it up and it's no further along now.  

[nyandeyanen]

One more bit of advice, which is free and 100% worth the price. Don't take the bait. Ignore it and work on that prototype.

[CPUWIZ]

39 minutes ago, nyandeyanen said:

One more bit of advice, which is free and 100% worth the price. Don't take the bait. Ignore it and work on that prototype.

 

I would suggest both, test program and prototype, showing functionality of said controller.  Might be better to reach programmers with that approach.

[+playsoft]

For the 8-bit home computers a Joy2Bplus standard was proposed for 3-button joysticks: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/278884-2-button-joystick/?do=findComment&comment=4206381. It's probably fair to say it didn't set the world alight but there has been a decent amount of interest. There are now over 40 games which support it, mostly hacks but a couple of homebrews too. It sounds like you are aiming for more functionality than this, but perhaps it gives an idea of what sort of interest you'd get.

 

With Joy2Bplus button 1 connects to the normal trigger line, buttons 2 and 3 to the paddle lines. It's not compatible with existing 7800 games because the trigger line is used to put the 7800 controllers in 2 button mode. However I have been able to use my Joy2Bplus joystick on the 7800 in my own code by clearing CTLSWB so all lines are inputs and reading INPT4/1/0 respectively for the 3 buttons (logic is the same for all buttons, the bit is 0 when pushed).

[cedropoole]

My Ultimate 7800 controller (again). 2 Sanwa JLW joysticks and Crown SDB-202 MX buttons with Cherry micro switches.  On the left side is an MK-1470 6 button Genesis controller PCB with an Edladdin Seagull 78 adapter and on the right is an Edladdin Easy 78 controller PCB. Great dual stick action with Robotron 2084 and with the Vecadapt and other adapters the Genesis side works with my Vectrex and SNES as well. 

[Zonie]

7 hours ago, CPUWIZ said:

 

I would suggest both, test program and prototype, showing functionality of said controller.  Might be better to reach programmers with that approach.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

[Zonie]

1 hour ago, playsoft said:

For the 8-bit home computers a Joy2Bplus standard was proposed for 3-button joysticks: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/278884-2-button-joystick/?do=findComment&comment=4206381. It's probably fair to say it didn't set the world alight but there has been a decent amount of interest. There are now over 40 games which support it, mostly hacks but a couple of homebrews too. It sounds like you are aiming for more functionality than this, but perhaps it gives an idea of what sort of interest you'd get.

 

With Joy2Bplus button 1 connects to the normal trigger line, buttons 2 and 3 to the paddle lines. It's not compatible with existing 7800 games because the trigger line is used to put the 7800 controllers in 2 button mode. However I have been able to use my Joy2Bplus joystick on the 7800 in my own code by clearing CTLSWB so all lines are inputs and reading INPT4/1/0 respectively for the 3 buttons (logic is the same for all buttons, the bit is 0 when pushed).

Thanks. I'd bet the first title was the 3 base Missile Command. I considered that wiring scheme in the past, and it's a great idea, but it would render it incompatible with peoples existing cartridges without some sort of swtich between "Norm" and "Enhanced" which adds complexity and cost. The computers have the benefit of much of their libraries on tape and disk. The 7800 does not. That is why I'm advocating a standard scheme for the left port and enhancements all to the on the right port. Further, my enhancements are also compatible with some existing games which use the right port for things, like Raiders and Stargate.

 

Contrary to what the Troll thinks, this could actually be of interest because it will already work for every existing title out there. (At least for player 1). I've already started working on a low cost spinner design that can be made with off the shelf parts

.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Zonie

[+MrZarniwoop]

13 hours ago, batari said:

That said, I think digital downloads are fine, but they will never be a suitable replacement for carts. I think digital downloads are only reasonable if there is also a cart release available.

I don't know, I think for this community to keep growing, digital distribution is likely required. I can see three possible scenarios:

 

Speculative scenario 1: AA introduces digital distribution for 2600/7800 homebrews, becomes the standard.

 

Games are available as digital downloads at some standard price structure ($9.99/$14.99/$19.99 ?) to be downloaded, perhaps serialized, but carts continue to be made and sold ($30/$35/$40 + $15 packaging + a premium for POKEY/HOKEY/BupChip) for collectors. And if you buy the cart, you get a digital copy free or a modest upcharge ($4.99?) that could facilitate a "digital upgrade" campaign when launched to upgrade all previous purchases.

 

Some of the people who want digital are original cart buyers that transition, but most will be people who bought no/few homebrews and the growth is all in new users attracted to the platform by Concerto, or perhaps Dragonfly.

 

This is a bit like the music industry's earlier focus on digital distribution before streaming services won out. Regardless, physical media is still sold and available, as there's still a small "true collector" market that buys vinyl record albums even today. For example, last month, Island Records reissued Bob Marley's albums on vinyl from half-speed masters. This whole thing is unlikely to be a big market, but it could power making it a bigger market than today.

 

Speculative scenario 2: Some other site introduces digital distribution for homebrews.

 

Similar to above, but some other site begins legitimate, perhaps serialized, digital distribution of homebrew game files, albeit a smaller library than all of AA. If so, they (at best) ignore carts, and maybe offer their own new flashcart, or (at worse) focus on undercutting and competing with carts.

 

This bifurcates the community a bit, unhelpful at this size and ignores the collaboration that brought us to a late 2020/early 2021 renaissance for 2600/7800 homebrews.

 

Speculative scenario 3: China pirates.

 

One or more offshore small businesses ignore copyrights, knock-off Concerto or Dragonfly, and sell them with everything in one place including dumped cartridges not otherwise available to flashcart owners. This could, of course, happen alongside either of the first two scenarios.

 

 

In all three scenarios, I'm hopeful there's room for innovative collector-oriented limited run physical cartridge releases like Rikki & Vikki or some of the limited run vinyl releases, or limited run blu-ray releases. But I don't think the question about digital distribution of 2600/7800 homebrews is an if it happens, but rather it's how it happens, and I hope we don't just slide down unintentionally down a the piracy path.

[Zonie]

4 hours ago, MrZarniwoop said:

I don't know, I think for this community to keep growing, digital distribution is likely required. I can see three possible scenarios:

 

Speculative scenario 1: AA introduces digital distribution for 2600/7800 homebrews, becomes the standard.

 

Games are available as digital downloads at some standard price structure ($9.99/$14.99/$19.99 ?) to be downloaded, perhaps serialized, but carts continue to be made and sold ($30/$35/$40 + $15 packaging + a premium for POKEY/HOKEY/BupChip) for collectors. And if you buy the cart, you get a digital copy free or a modest upcharge ($4.99?) that could facilitate a "digital upgrade" campaign when launched to upgrade all previous purchases.

 

Some of the people who want digital are original cart buyers that transition, but most will be people who bought no/few homebrews and the growth is all in new users attracted to the platform by Concerto, or perhaps Dragonfly.

 

This is a bit like the music industry's earlier focus on digital distribution before streaming services won out. Regardless, physical media is still sold and available, as there's still a small "true collector" market that buys vinyl record albums even today. For example, last month, Island Records reissued Bob Marley's albums on vinyl from half-speed masters. This whole thing is unlikely to be a big market, but it could power making it a bigger market than today.

 

Speculative scenario 2: Some other site introduces digital distribution for homebrews.

 

Similar to above, but some other site begins legitimate, perhaps serialized, digital distribution of homebrew game files, albeit a smaller library than all of AA. If so, they (at best) ignore carts, and maybe offer their own new flashcart, or (at worse) focus on undercutting and competing with carts.

 

This bifurcates the community a bit, unhelpful at this size and ignores the collaboration that brought us to a late 2020/early 2021 renaissance for 2600/7800 homebrews.

 

Speculative scenario 3: China pirates.

 

One or more offshore small businesses ignore copyrights, knock-off Concerto or Dragonfly, and sell them with everything in one place including dumped cartridges not otherwise available to flashcart owners. This could, of course, happen alongside either of the first two scenarios.

 

 

In all three scenarios, I'm hopeful there's room for innovative collector-oriented limited run physical cartridge releases like Rikki & Vikki or some of the limited run vinyl releases, or limited run blu-ray releases. But I don't think the question about digital distribution of 2600/7800 homebrews is an if it happens, but rather it's how it happens, and I hope we don't just slide down unintentionally down a the piracy path.

Sadly, Scenario 3 will happen. Look at the GDEMU for the Dreamcast. So many sellers hawking the same pirated product from China and the guy who invented it is probably not making up for his efforts. I hope to see some sort of digital distro along with the cart. You buy the cart, you get the distro, with a serial, and if the serial comes up in multiple copies, not sure what one can do other than out the person who pirated it and perhaps blacklist them from future sales... Only one with the capability to edit the code can delete that, but then those guys are already pirating the carts.

 

I still prefer a cart. I only buy the games I really like. I'm not a hardcore collector but I'd like to have it on the SD card so the cart can stay in it's nice clean baggie.

[CPUWIZ]

4 hours ago, MrZarniwoop said:

I hope we don't just slide down unintentionally down a the piracy path.

 

You don't need intention, it will happen.  There is no IF or BUT about it.  If I ever get the time to release a homebrew, you better be a good cracker to make that ROM run on anything but my cart.  I know people pooh-pooh DRM, but that is ingrained in me, because I spent half the 80's removing copy protections and later in the early 90's realized that this directly affects myself, or my company.  Imagine writing a book for 2 years and 1 day before release, someone puts it online to read for free.  This happened to me with a XBOX title, in that case it was Russians, who released the game 1 week before store release.  You'll never understand, until it affects yourself.

 

"Piracy doesn't hurt anyone, it increases sales!!!11!!" - How about a glowing hot poker up your ass?

[Zonie]

48 minutes ago, CPUWIZ said:

 

You don't need intention, it will happen.  There is no IF or BUT about it.  If I ever get the time to release a homebrew, you better be a good cracker to make that ROM run on anything but my cart.  I know people pooh-pooh DRM, but that is ingrained in me, because I spent half the 80's removing copy protections and later in the early 90's realized that this directly affects myself, or my company.  Imagine writing a book for 2 years and 1 day before release, someone puts it online to read for free.  This happened to me with a XBOX title, in that case it was Russians, who released the game 1 week before store release.  You'll never understand, until it affects yourself.

 

"Piracy doesn't hurt anyone, it increases sales!!!11!!" - How about a glowing hot poker up your ass?

I totally agree. That has to suck about the XBOX game. I've had my work plagiarized by co workers and they got the credit and bonus. Even after I proved the work was mine by showing I embedded my name in the original work, I was still considered the jerk with sour grapes and the other guys got to keep their bonus. Fuckers.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Zonie

[+GoldenWheels]

Honestly the best thing anybody could design for the 7800 is a machine that keeps Bob D. in good health and happy, pumping out games as usual. One of you tech guys, get on that.

 

Make sure it has paddles.

[+MrZarniwoop]

51 minutes ago, CPUWIZ said:

You don't need intention, it will happen.

I know you're right.

 

I'm just thinking this is a way to get this AA community a bit larger and more sustainable longer. Digital distribution could be a path. I know I'd buy the whole AA catalog digitally, or even subscribe to it so new releases are included.

[+batari]

4 hours ago, MrZarniwoop said:

I don't know, I think for this community to keep growing, digital distribution is likely required. I can see three possible scenarios:

 

Speculative scenario 1: AA introduces digital distribution for 2600/7800 homebrews, becomes the standard.

 

Games are available as digital downloads at some standard price structure ($9.99/$14.99/$19.99 ?) to be downloaded, perhaps serialized, but carts continue to be made and sold ($30/$35/$40 + $15 packaging + a premium for POKEY/HOKEY/BupChip) for collectors. And if you buy the cart, you get a digital copy free or a modest upcharge ($4.99?) that could facilitate a "digital upgrade" campaign when launched to upgrade all previous purchases.

 

Some of the people who want digital are original cart buyers that transition, but most will be people who bought no/few homebrews and the growth is all in new users attracted to the platform by Concerto, or perhaps Dragonfly.

 

This is a bit like the music industry's earlier focus on digital distribution before streaming services won out. Regardless, physical media is still sold and available, as there's still a small "true collector" market that buys vinyl record albums even today. For example, last month, Island Records reissued Bob Marley's albums on vinyl from half-speed masters. This whole thing is unlikely to be a big market, but it could power making it a bigger market than today.

 

Speculative scenario 2: Some other site introduces digital distribution for homebrews.

 

Similar to above, but some other site begins legitimate, perhaps serialized, digital distribution of homebrew game files, albeit a smaller library than all of AA. If so, they (at best) ignore carts, and maybe offer their own new flashcart, or (at worse) focus on undercutting and competing with carts.

 

This bifurcates the community a bit, unhelpful at this size and ignores the collaboration that brought us to a late 2020/early 2021 renaissance for 2600/7800 homebrews.

 

Speculative scenario 3: China pirates.

 

One or more offshore small businesses ignore copyrights, knock-off Concerto or Dragonfly, and sell them with everything in one place including dumped cartridges not otherwise available to flashcart owners. This could, of course, happen alongside either of the first two scenarios.

 

 

In all three scenarios, I'm hopeful there's room for innovative collector-oriented limited run physical cartridge releases like Rikki & Vikki or some of the limited run vinyl releases, or limited run blu-ray releases. But I don't think the question about digital distribution of 2600/7800 homebrews is an if it happens, but rather it's how it happens, and I hope we don't just slide down unintentionally down a the piracy path.

I never said there would be no digital distribution.

Something similar to #1 is probably going to happen this year. #2 seems unlikely as homebrewers are not likely to give permission to some third party to do this. #3 we can't stop.

 

The reason it hasn't happened yet, I think, is because every time digital downloads are talked of, people expect to buy them for a dollar, like some crappy iPhone game that has tons of in-app purchases. And $5 has been called "too much." I think that attitude has slowed this down a lot.

 

So although this will still happen, I guarantee there will be a sense of entitlement presented when it's found that selling downloads for, say, $15 (unless a cart is also purchased) is the norm. But, people do like carts and that isn't changing. Nobody collects digital downloads and I don't think digital downloads will ever replace carts. Cart purchases will continue to be the norm.

 

I know DRM is unpopular, but releasing a downloadable game without any DRM at all is asking for trouble. It will be distributed privately for free. Why pay for something you can get for free? I think it's time for everyone to accept that DRM is the way things work now, and if a homebrew author wants some form of DRM on a downloadable game, I would help with that request, since people will likely want to play the game on Harmony/Concerto.

[+MrZarniwoop]

1 minute ago, batari said:

I know DRM is unpopular, but releasing a downloadable game without any DRM at all is asking for trouble. It will be distributed privately for free. Why pay for something you can get for free? I think it's time for everyone to accept that DRM is the way things work now, and if a homebrew author wants some form of DRM on a downloadable game, I would help with that request, since people will likely want to play the game on Harmony/Concerto.

I think this is fair. Will Concerto and/or Harmony have some structure to facilitate this?

[+batari]

Just now, MrZarniwoop said:

I think this is fair. Will Concerto and/or Harmony have some structure to facilitate this?

Yes. The method I came up with should work on other flashcarts too.

[+MrZarniwoop]

4 minutes ago, batari said:

The reason it hasn't happened yet, I think, is because every time digital downloads are talked of, people expect to buy them for a dollar, like some crappy iPhone game that has tons of in-app purchases. And $5 has been called "too much." I think that attitude has slowed this down a lot.

 

So although this will still happen, I guarantee there will be a sense of entitlement presented when it's found that selling downloads for, say, $15 (unless a cart is also purchased) is the norm. But, people do like carts and that isn't changing. Nobody collects digital downloads and I don't think digital downloads will ever replace carts. Cart purchases will continue to be the norm.

I tried to think through the economics of costs and some margin for development and distribution when I proposed the $9.99 (deep backcatalog)/$14.99 (normal backcatalog)/$19.99 (new releases) pricing scale for digital distribution of homebrews and the +$4.99 as add-on to a cart. I have to think if it's less, it'll risk turning a labor of love and community service into servitude.

 

Anyone thinking $1 a game for 2600/7800 homebrews has the wrong paradigm. The phone is in everyone's pocket, so a good hit can be 10,000+ orders and add-ons or even 10x that or 100x that or more. I imagine a hit in the 2600/7800 homebrew scene is maybe a few hundred copies in all.

[Zonie]

13 minutes ago, MrZarniwoop said:

I think this is fair. Will Concerto and/or Harmony have some structure to facilitate this?

I agree. I can buy 3 games for $45 this way instead of one for $40 or $50. Or if I get both when I buy the cart, that works too. I would never give something away that I had to pay for. I'm to cheap!

 

[+batari]

42 minutes ago, MrZarniwoop said:

I tried to think through the economics of costs and some margin for development and distribution when I proposed the $9.99 (deep backcatalog)/$14.99 (normal backcatalog)/$19.99 (new releases) pricing scale for digital distribution of homebrews and the +$4.99 as add-on to a cart. I have to think if it's less, it'll risk turning a labor of love and community service into servitude.

 

Anyone thinking $1 a game for 2600/7800 homebrews has the wrong paradigm. The phone is in everyone's pocket, so a good hit can be 10,000+ orders and add-ons or even 10x that or 100x that or more. I imagine a hit in the 2600/7800 homebrew scene is maybe a few hundred copies in all.

Yes, and it's forgetting the reality that 99% of games for a dollar have countless in-app purchases, and the microtransactions from that often net many times more than the game itself. You can't compare that with homebrews at all.

 

That pricing structure, or something similar, would be ideal, and maybe attitudes have finally evolved about how much value you are getting for your money. The last time this came up (that I saw) I recall that the idea was pretty much abandoned as it's not even worth setting up a digital distribution system if a dollar is the expected cost and $5 is "too much" as if the value is entirely in the media and the content is basically worthless.

 

Some digital stuff may have been cheap at one time, like years ago when a lot of Kindle books were 99 cents. But now a typical new hardcover book is around $25 and the Kindle version is about $12. Not 99 cents. Sure, a physical book is nice but it seems more understand the value of the content is not negligible compared to the media itself. In that vein, "half price" seems a lot more reasonable to me than a dollar!

 

 

[Swami]

Where are all the free roms? 

I don’t think you can legitimately slam on free roms and then make carts with artificial rarity/scarcity. That is all. 

[doubledown]

All right, so I've given this some serious thought, and this is what I've come up with:

 

P1/Left Controller Port = (Standard Controls, would work for all legacy games)

 

Joystick or Trak-Ball

 

2 Buttons

 

P2/Right Controller Port = (Enhanced Controls, for additional features for new homebrews/hacks)

 

1 Rotary encoder control, single axis (using the joystick Up/Down directions), same as the 2600 Driving Controller wiring, for games that require a spinning/rotary controller like Tempest, or as a digital steering wheel

 

2 Analog controls, same as the 2600 Paddle Controllers wiring, 2 axis control could provide separate analog throttle and steering controls for a driving/racing game, or a single axis could be used for a game like TRON

 

2 Additional buttons, (using the joystick Left/Right directions), same as the 2600 Paddle Controllers "button(s)" wiring, which would allow for a total of 4 buttons, when combined with the 2 buttons from the "Standard Controls"

 

Now 2 things...(1) I'm not advocating an attempt to stuff all of these bits into 1 controller, unless it's really really big, and (2) persons who know, and properly understand the 7800's hardware / software possibilities and limitations, would need to verify that this is a useable solution.

[Swami]

56 minutes ago, doubledown said:

All right, so I've given this some serious thought, and this is what I've come up with:

 

P1/Left Controller Port = (Standard Controls, would work for all legacy games)

 

Joystick or Trak-Ball

 

2 Buttons

 

P2/Right Controller Port = (Enhanced Controls, for additional features for new homebrews/hacks)

 

1 Rotary encoder control, single axis (using the joystick Up/Down directions), same as the 2600 Driving Controller wiring, for games that require a spinning/rotary controller like Tempest, or as a digital steering wheel

 

2 Analog controls, same as the 2600 Paddle Controllers wiring, 2 axis control could provide separate analog throttle and steering controls for a driving/racing game, or a single axis could be used for a game like TRON

 

2 Additional buttons, (using the joystick Left/Right directions), same as the 2600 Paddle Controllers "button(s)" wiring, which would allow for a total of 4 buttons, when combined with the 2 buttons from the "Standard Controls"

 

Now 2 things...(1) I'm not advocating an attempt to stuff all of these bits into 1 controller, unless it's really really big, and (2) persons who know, and properly understand the 7800's hardware / software possibilities and limitations, would need to verify that this is a useable solution.

Doesn't *have* to be that big:

[Zonie]

1 hour ago, doubledown said:

All right, so I've given this some serious thought, and this is what I've come up with:

 

P1/Left Controller Port = (Standard Controls, would work for all legacy games)

 

Joystick or Trak-Ball

 

2 Buttons

 

P2/Right Controller Port = (Enhanced Controls, for additional features for new homebrews/hacks)

 

1 Rotary encoder control, single axis (using the joystick Up/Down directions), same as the 2600 Driving Controller wiring, for games that require a spinning/rotary controller like Tempest, or as a digital steering wheel

 

2 Analog controls, same as the 2600 Paddle Controllers wiring, 2 axis control could provide separate analog throttle and steering controls for a driving/racing game, or a single axis could be used for a game like TRON

 

2 Additional buttons, (using the joystick Left/Right directions), same as the 2600 Paddle Controllers "button(s)" wiring, which would allow for a total of 4 buttons, when combined with the 2 buttons from the "Standard Controls"

 

Now 2 things...(1) I'm not advocating an attempt to stuff all of these bits into 1 controller, unless it's really really big, and (2) persons who know, and properly understand the 7800's hardware / software possibilities and limitations, would need to verify that this is a useable solution.

OK that's pretty much what I came up with too, but I inadvertently thought the spinner encoder was on left and right. See my schematic first post. You also are forgetting the fire button on the right port. That is button 3, and up and down are 4 and 5 respectively. I'll update my schematic to reflect the correct pins on the rotary encoder.

ZoNiE Controller Rev A.pdf

[Zonie]

3 minutes ago, Swami said:

Doesn't *have* to be that big:

Exactly. This sort of controller would benefit from a USB to Atari converter...

[Swami]

Just now, Zonie said:

Exactly. This sort of controller would benefit from a USB to Atari converter...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Best-Amiga-Atari-ST-C64-C128-Commodore-Mouse-Gamepad-Joystick-USB-adapter-TOM/233822519244?hash=item3670e87fcc:g:iZoAAOSwZVlXpIms