Altirra and ReShade

[Atari Nut]

This is a continuation of a thread started in the Emulation section about RetroArch that morphed into using ReShade with Altirra.  I am trying to get ReShade Home (reshade.me) to work with Altirra in one of the DirectX modes.  I can get it to work using OpenGL when installing ReShade and selecting OpenGL as the only api in Altirra.  The problem is that OpenGL is too slow on the Atari VCS.  I cannot get it to work if I install it as DirectX 9 or DirectX 10, 11 or 12 and selecting the corresponding DirectX in Altirra.  Youxia was able to get it to work with DirectX 11 by somehow installing ReShade as OpenGL and then swapping to DirectX 11...but this method doesn't work for me.  ReShade is working with Stella and DirectX so I'm hoping there is still a way to get it to work in Altirra.

[phaeron]

Took a look at this -- the problem is that ReShade relies on the program loading D3D9.DLL or DXGI.DLL from the current directory for its hooking mechanism to work. Current versions of Altirra force these DLLs to load from the system32 directory to avoid conflicts with programs that place similarly named DLLs into PATH and a security issue with DLL hijacking via the current directory.

 

[Atari Nut]

Thanks for taking a look at this phaeron.  Is it possible to add an optional setting that will allow ReShade to work with DirectX?  Reshade has some great shaders.

[Atari Nut]

On 3/7/2021 at 10:09 PM, phaeron said:

Took a look at this -- the problem is that ReShade relies on the program loading D3D9.DLL or DXGI.DLL from the current directory for its hooking mechanism to work. Current versions of Altirra force these DLLs to load from the system32 directory to avoid conflicts with programs that place similarly named DLLs into PATH and a security issue with DLL hijacking via the current directory.

 

Which was the last version before Altirra forces these dlls to load from the system32 directory?  I'll run that one on my setup.

[phaeron]

14 hours ago, Atari Nut said:

Which was the last version before Altirra forces these dlls to load from the system32 directory?  I'll run that one on my setup.

1.9 -- so you'd be running a 9-year old build.

[Mclaneinc]

Atari Nut, not matter how good the shaders are the loss of features and improvements of a 9yr old build are not a good swap. In 9yrs Avery there's just so many new features, devices, fixes, emulation improvements etc etc etc..

 

Would it not be just as easy to ask the Reshade if they can do the option in it and its the program wanting to work with many other external programs so any variation should be built in to that imho, it should be the flexible item..

 

You can but ask...

[youxia]

As I said in the other thread, Reshade + CRT shaders works on my Altirra 3.90, when using the swap trick (install Reshade for OpenGL, then change from OpenGL to DX11 in the emulator).

I don't see why it wouldn't work for you either @Atari Nut.

 

I can do it again from scratch and write it up a step-by-step  if somebody tells me how to completely uninstall Altirra.  I've tried, but it seems the settings are not stored in the main directory.

[Mclaneinc]

Hi there, Altirra has two storage places that it uses one or the other. In normal mode it uses the registry to store all settings but it portable mode it stores them in the local Altirra directory in a file called Altirra.ini.

 

If the .ini file is deleted it then stored the setting at or before shutdown back in the registry.

 

So as long as the video drive has an openGL mode then just setting it (according to what you have said) to OpenGL with allow it.

 

I'll try it myself now..

 

 

Edit: Your swap trick not working here or I'm doing it wrong..4.00 beta

Edited March 12, 2021 by Mclaneinc

[youxia]

I just unpacked Altirra zip and ran it from that directory. But I can't see any .ini file there.

 

Anyway, if you:

-download ReshadeSetup, start it and point to Altirra64.exe

-then choose "OpenGL" in the "Which rendering API..." window

-Reshade will install

-start Altirra, go into Tools / Options / Display and choose only OpenGL (you can do it beforehand too I guess)

-Reshade should now appear and work ok

-go into Tools / Options / Display again and now choose only DX11

-Reshade should still work ok

 

When you quit and restart Altirra (which is now in DX11 mode) the Reshade will be gone, go back into into Tools / Options / Display, choose only OpenGL (Reshade appears again) and then untick OpenGL and choose only DX11 (Reshade stays on).

 

It's a bit cumbersome method but works fine on my machine. You only need to do it once per Altirra start.

[Mclaneinc]

Sorry youxia, didn't spot 3.90, thanks for the help but I rarely ever downgrade from versions of Altirra as there's so many beta updates that can be feature packed and usually very stable indeed..

 

Maybe something will happen reshade wise, I did look at it on Bsnes HD and it was very nice..

[+Stephen]

I find it ironic that when we had our real Atari hardware, we spent as much time as possible making the video sharp and crisp.  Now that we have these awesome emulators with razor sharp video that can run on 4k displays, we spend all this time downgrading the displays to make it look like old fuzzy blurry CRT.

 

Nothing wrong with that, it's just funny how things have come full circle.  I will say that as much as I love my 20" Sony PVM with VBXE (so RGB), when I switch back to the emulator, it's definitely easier on the eyes.  No flicker, no pincushion or bow, no convergence issues.

 

I wonder if Avery can add an option to Altirra to give it a constant 15.75kHz squeal for the full on retro experience?

[youxia]

53 minutes ago, Stephen said:

I will say that as much as I love my 20" Sony PVM with VBXE (so RGB), when I switch back to the emulator, it's definitely easier on the eyes.  No flicker, no pincushion or bow, no convergence issues.

Each to its own, but  I personally can't bear the "emulator look" - it's too raw and naked, nothing like the original games. Most people use shaders not to reproduce the flaws, but the things the CRTs excelled at; the glow, natural antialiasing coming from the scanlines and shadowmasks, and so on.

 

And if your PVM suffers from these ailments I think it's time for a little 240p suite/knob twistin' action

[+Stephen]

47 minutes ago, youxia said:

Each to its own, but  I personally can't bear the "emulator look" - it's too raw and naked, nothing like the original games. Most people use shaders not to reproduce the flaws, but the things the CRTs excelled at; the glow, natural antialiasing coming from the scanlines and shadowmasks, and so on.

 

And if your PVM suffers from these ailments I think it's time for a little 240p suite/knob twistin' action

It's fortunately not that bad   It does have a little bit of bow in one resolution.  It's one of those models that is adjustable via on screen display and I spent some time with it last weekend, but I just couldn't get it any better.  I'd fix one issue at the expense of another.  Fortunately, convergence and focus are good so I left things alone before I really made them worse.

 

I do agree that these machines look their absolute best on CRT.  Regarding shaders, do you have any recommendations to get a good look for vector games in MAME?  I've not touched MAME for geez - I'd say 7 or 8 years now so I am way out of the loop on such things.

[youxia]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

I do agree that these machines look their absolute best on CRT.  Regarding shaders, do you have any recommendations to get a good look for vector games in MAME?  I've not touched MAME for geez - I'd say 7 or 8 years now so I am way out of the loop on such things.

Haven't done it myself yet, I mostly use GroovyMAME on my CRT TV via crtemudriver.  But it's definitely possible by using HLSL / BGFX configs. These are Mame's native shaders. They also have dedicated vector settings. Example: https://forums.launchbox-app.com/topic/45983-make-mame-look-as-good-hi-res-as-advancemame-for-vector-roms/

 

Other option is to use Mame in Retroarch, where there sould be some dedicated vector shaders as well.

[_The Doctor__]

the mask a and scan line separation are responsible for making a great display not only for the Atari, but many arcade games. I provides detail and clarity.

Many old video games look more realistic that way. Not for nostalgic purposes.

When lines that were never directly adjacent to each other before are now, it produces an effect that was never intended.

The lines are thicker and the blockiness of old style graphics is exaggerated. Some modern day mask and filters go too far and make the slight glow and flair that might of been seen on 'some' displays too much in the crazy other direction. I wish if it were to be done it would be of the very best CRT of it's day. But for some reason they choose filters that resemble the worst rounded corners though a haze of tar / smoke / dust glow flair what have you. Any back in the day monitor that looked like these shader/filters I see today would have gotten the full treatment and if they still resembled this stuff - would have been in a garbage can PDQ!

 

pretty darn quickly / pretty d*mned quickly  is one of those old phrases forgive the dated stuff like this.... at lest we provide some idea what it means here.

 

[Mclaneinc]

I like the way Altirra gives you little sound and video flaws quite deliberately to add 'atmosphere' for those that like it but then again I also have a Sophia 2 board which is sharp as a knife..

 

Best way I can describe it is that I love the old look but its also nice to see it super clean in a 'the way it could have been' way..(had the tech been there)

[youxia]

10 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

I wish if it were to be done it would be of the very best CRT of it's day.

The best shaders are very configurable, so you can totally adjust the amount of "flaws": curvature, noise, flicker, etc, as well as scanline thickness, shadowmask intensity and so on. So you can either make your ideal TV, or a beat-up RF clunker too

 

I still use CRTs for 95% of my retro gaming, but I must say this year is the first when I slowly started using shaders here and there as well. They finally got really good. especially when combined with a good monitor. If the OLED tech wasn't so flawed for games maybe they would even get to the "equal" level.

[ggn]

22 hours ago, Stephen said:

I find it ironic that when we had our real Atari hardware, we spent as much time as possible making the video sharp and crisp.  Now that we have these awesome emulators with razor sharp video that can run on 4k displays, we spend all this time downgrading the displays to make it look like old fuzzy blurry CRT.

 

Nothing wrong with that, it's just funny how things have come full circle.  I will say that as much as I love my 20" Sony PVM with VBXE (so RGB), when I switch back to the emulator, it's definitely easier on the eyes.  No flicker, no pincushion or bow, no convergence issues.

 

I wonder if Avery can add an option to Altirra to give it a constant 15.75kHz squeal for the full on retro experience?

Personally my preferences are split into 2 very distinct areas: a) doing anything with text (reading, writing, programming etc), b) playing games/watching demos/anything that has to do with animating stuff on screen.

 

For (a) I'll use newer displays if I get the chance to. My eyes are very thankful of this, this can make long sessions much more bearable. Text rendered crisply is a definite win.

 

Predictably for (b) it's the other way round, CRTs if the option is there. I have a 100/120Hz TFT monitor that almost shows smooth movement, but there's still visible ghosting. A typical example of this is a scroller with white text on black background, or high contrast in general. It's a disaster, the graphics start looking super muddy. There's also the detail that the graphics were designed with CRT monitors in mind, so any imprecisions or less sharp image provided by the CRT was a part of the graphic design. So it's certainly going to look "odd" in TFT monitors.

 

Some people have said that very specific TFT monitor brands can be tinkered (via settings) to eliminate the ghosting problem almost 100%. There's also those new fancy 240Hz monitors that also promise little to no ghosting. I'll see when I get my hands either of the two options. But for now my setup includes both CRTs and TFTs.

 

 

[youxia]

If you don't like ghosting you should try a monitor with ULMB or one of its clones: https://blurbusters.com/faq/motion-blur-reduction/

[Mclaneinc]

Where possible I use CRT, like you GGN I hate the ghosting or the crawl, and like you when its text based that is when the Sophia 2 gets used (still need to pick up the DVI lead to make the RGB crt  lead, damn this lockdown). My eyes are slowly getting worse, I used to not wear glasses and had 20-20 but then it became wearing glasses to read close stuff but now its all the time. So just a 14" or maybe bigger crt does me fine bar the PC emulated stuff

[Atari Nut]

On 3/12/2021 at 6:09 AM, youxia said:

As I said in the other thread, Reshade + CRT shaders works on my Altirra 3.90, when using the swap trick (install Reshade for OpenGL, then change from OpenGL to DX11 in the emulator).

I don't see why it wouldn't work for you either @Atari Nut.

 

I can do it again from scratch and write it up a step-by-step  if somebody tells me how to completely uninstall Altirra.  I've tried, but it seems the settings are not stored in the main directory.

@youxia After you swap from OpenGL to DX11 in the emulator and launch a game, exit the game and look in the Altirra folder.  Check out the log file.  Is it still opengl32.log?  If so, it's still running OpenGL, not DX.

[Atari Nut]

On 3/12/2021 at 5:59 AM, Mclaneinc said:

Atari Nut, not matter how good the shaders are the loss of features and improvements of a 9yr old build are not a good swap. In 9yrs Avery there's just so many new features, devices, fixes, emulation improvements etc etc etc..

 

Would it not be just as easy to ask the Reshade if they can do the option in it and its the program wanting to work with many other external programs so any variation should be built in to that imho, it should be the flexible item..

 

You can but ask...

I agree.  9 years is too old.  I registered in the ReShade forums to ask about optionally implementing something to work with Altirra.  I don't think it is possible though.  ReShade works by using a modified version of the DirectX .dll.  That's why it places it in the game directory.  If it placed it in the system32 directory where Altirra is looking for it, it would overwrite the official DirectX .dll... which is undesirable.  ReShade can work with multiple games independently by placing the DirectX .dll in the program directory of each game.  This leaves the original .dll intact for the games you don't want to be modified.  Good thought though!

 

[youxia]

Yes, it is. So maybe Reshade is running in OpenGL. But I can see a change in image quality in Altirra going from GL to DX, so Altirra is definitely changing to DX.

There is also something in the log about "Redirecting D3D11CreateDevice" and "Passing on to D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain".... that's way above my paygrade though.

 

Maybe they can tell you something more on the forums, but I doubt very much it's possible to adapt Reshade to Altirra, as you have said already.

 

I'm still not sure though why this method would not work for you. Are you saying VCS is too slow?

[Atari Nut]

20 hours ago, youxia said:

Yes, it is. So maybe Reshade is running in OpenGL. But I can see a change in image quality in Altirra going from GL to DX, so Altirra is definitely changing to DX.

There is also something in the log about "Redirecting D3D11CreateDevice" and "Passing on to D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain".... that's way above my paygrade though.

 

Maybe they can tell you something more on the forums, but I doubt very much it's possible to adapt Reshade to Altirra, as you have said already.

 

I'm still not sure though why this method would not work for you. Are you saying VCS is too slow?

Yea, way too slow.  It's works fine without Reshade but as soon as ReShade kicks on in OpenGL, the speeds drops dramatically.  I have a Lenovo M90n-1 being used as my main PC.  It just an Intel Core™ i3-8145U with Integrated Intel UHD graphics but it can still handle ReShade and OpenGL without slowing down.

 

Edit:  I see that phaeron added an option to allow ReShade to work in his latest Beta build.  I'll be trying it later on.  Thanks Phaeron!

Edited March 14, 2021 by Atari Nut

[_The Doctor__]

24 minutes ago, Atari Nut said:

Yea, way too slow.  It's works fine without Reshade but as soon as ReShade kicks on in OpenGL, the speeds drops dramatically.  I have a Lenovo M90n-1 being used as my main PC.  It just an Intel Core™ i3-8145U with Integrated Intel UHD graphics but it can still handle ReShade and OpenGL without slowing down.

 

Edit:  I see that phaeron added an option to allow ReShade to work in his latest Beta build.  I'll be trying it later on.  Thanks Phaeron!

too slow in all memory/storage OS choices or just the Atari OS? As in are you virtual machine within another OS or a clean WIN boot... did you add more memory or are you stock?

Edited March 14, 2021 by _The Doctor__