How do you guys feel about recapping?

[blindedbanchee]

How do you guys feel about recapping? when should you do it?  do you feel weird about touching original hardware even when it is something so small? i do feel weird about it because my 400 still has all original hardware. does recapping do anything to the overall value of the machine?

[+5-11under]

I have never recapped anything. That said, there was a period of time where a lot of caps were built badly. I'm pretty sure I've experienced this is some motherboards and stereo receivers.

I'd look at a few factors:

• Is the build time within (or near) the "bad" times?
• What's the worst that could happen? If a capacitor goes bad, is it just a matter or replacing that cap, or will other parts fail because of the capacitor failure?
• Does the particular product seem to have this issue of bad capacitors?

After this research, I'd determine whether it was best to replace the capacitors now, or wait until the capacitors go bad, or forget about it altogether because the odds are very slim.

 

[toiletunes]

If I was a collector or historian, I'd want a console to be 100% original so I could preserve the history and display it. 

 

As a game player, I'd pay more for a recapped machine (assuming it was done well) because it was maintained and probably more likely to keep working.

[+littaum]

I believe this is known as the "Video Game Console of Theseus" debate.

[carlsson]

If those are electrolytes, in particular surface mounted, they may start to leak. You don't want that goo onto your motherboard as it will corrode and cause irreversible damage. So it is a dual edged sword: either keep the computer in perfect original condition with the risk that it will self destruct in a few years time (if it already hasn't), or service it by replacing components that may break (but then it no longer is original condition). I suppose it is like having a vintage car, do you want to replace the oil, the brake fluids, put more air into the tires every now and then or let it remain untouched?

 

That said, it is true that some caps are worse than others. Mainly it seems to have been a 1990's thing, up to early 2000's. Some brands are more prone than others, e.g. Amigas and IIRC Macintoshes. I think Atari ST has survived better, perhaps they didn't cheap out as much on which capacitors to install. Then there were those infamous PC Chips motherboards with on purpose wrongly marked capacitors but I don't know if those leak easier or just don't have the capacity or heat tolerance they claim to have.

 

When it comes to older machines, eventually the caps will dry or perhaps leak as well but as noted check if it is known to be a common problem on a particular model.

 

Regarding value, I think e.g. Amiga 1200 is worth more if it is freshly recapped with quality components by a known experienced repairman, than it is with almost 30 year old caps that are known to start leaking any year now. If the damage already has occurred, it is a question if it is salvageable and at what cost, or if you keep onto your Amiga only for its historical value even if it is dead on the inside.

Edited March 8, 2021 by carlsson

[+Stephen]

Funny how experiences differ, but I've never ever had to recap a device.  Computer, amplifier (many crazy high power), television, etc.  I own over a dozen Atari 8-bit computers, every console Atari ever made from 1972 through the Jag+CD.  I have an SAE Mark III amp from 1969, 7 different DC or ComTech series from the 70s and 80s, Son of Ampzilla from 1978 (all of these professional rack mount gear and all capable of 300 to 2000 watts RMS).  Have a Sony Trinitron from 1977 - I plugged it in and turned it on.  Amazingly, no caps exploded.

 

I'm fixing burned out lights lights in my Sansui 7070 receiver from 1976 and I'm sure a bunch of audio assholes - oh sorry - audiophiles will crucify me because I am not replacing a single capacitor.  Why?  Because none of them are bad.  The amp makes 20% above rated power into 4 and 8 ohms with perfect signal traces on an oscilloscope and more importantly, it sounds good when I listen to it.  That amp has been turned on up to 14 hours a day 7 days a week for the past 7 years I've owned it.

 

Take it for what it's worth.  Just a single guy's opinion.  But few things grind my fears more than the "re-cap it or it can't be used" crowd.  I constantly beg for evidence, pictures, etc. for anyone that has replaced caps in said devices that were shown to be bad when tested.

[Keatah]

Bad caps in a power supply can cause other parts to blow apart, like transistors and monolithic regulators.

 

For authenticity, just keep the old parts and make a repair log.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Keatah

[+Stephen Moss]

Generally there should be no need to re-cap, we have equipment at work that is 30 years old and never had a cap problem with them. Ultimately it comes down to peace of mind, if it makes you feel happy and confident about the continued operation of your equipment then re-capping it will not do any harm. Just don't believe the nonsense about it being a cure all for faulty equipment as if it does fix a problem the fault was more likely to be a bad solder joint on the cap than the cap itself.

 

Electrolytics are the main problem as the electolyte can deform if they are not used for a long time (at least 10 years, generally longer) although if you slowly increase the voltage over several hours it can reform, but I appreciate not many have the necessary variable power supply for that. Turning stuff on for an hour every couple of years should help prevent that.

 

As for re-capping affecting the originality of the device, replacing one 1000uF 16V radial cap with another really should not be an issue as it is a like for like replacement, you have not fundamentally changed the design or specification, unlike fitting a AV mod. Anyone who is concerned about it not having the original factory fitted parts is being over pedantic in my opinion unless they just want to sit it on a shelf and never use it, but where in the fun in that.

[nadir]

Had a cap blow up in my PC XT clone power supply a few years ago.  It was quite spectacular...  BANG.  Video started dancing around.  Smell of smoke (but none visible)

 

I've had to recap a number of video cards from the 2000's that exploded the caps.  Cars from the '90's to 2000's are notorious for cap failures in the ECUs as well.  I really haven't seen it be a problem in other electronics though.

[carlsson]

Yes, Wikipedia mentions the capacitor plague took place between 1999 and 2007, but surely there were bad caps already in the early 1990's. Some claim that continuous use like Stephen runs his amp for several hours each day will extend the lifetime, just as storing it unused for many years will shorten it.

 

I forgot about filter caps in power supplies, those tend to break quite often leaving white smoke and a bad smell. While the PSU tends to work without those, it is recommended to replace after it has blown. At least those don't slowly leak gunk onto the motherboard in that case, they simply blow and emit smoke.

 

But yes, look up each device if it is known for having issues or not. Inspect visually to see if any caps appear to be bulging. I don't know if there are tools that properly can measure capacitance of components still mounted on the board, and also I don't know if less capacity necessarily is a sign that it needs to be replaced, perhaps depends how much capacity it has lost in that case.

 

Also consider how rare your machine is. An Atari 400 isn't super valuable compared to e.g. an Apple 1 which is a mere 3 years older. In the later case I understand that a board must have the exact original chips and components (as well as documentation and its provenience) to reach those seven digit dollar values, meaning that if you have an Apple 1 with bad caps, it probably should be left as it is. I don't know how much each replaced capacitor would bring down the value - at least $500-$1000 on an Apple 1, and perhaps $5-10 on an Atari 400?

[MikeDijital777]

If its going to power on, YES

 

If you care about leaving it on a shelf and not corroding the board , YES

 

If its just a shelf piece you are never going to turn on and don't care how the board looks , NO

 

Cap juice is gross and destructive... I haven't met a TG16 portable that didn't thank me after a good recap lol

[youxia]

I have several micros but I won't bother doing any recapping unless there is a very strong evidence that it actually might be necessary (like with A1200).

 

I feel that sometimes in this hobby things get exaggerated and spread in a kind of viral way, for example in regard to alleged danger of using certain PSUs.

[+LS650]

Over in the Facebook group Vectrex Owners Unite, this debate comes up almost weekly.  The majority of members there seem to think that an old Vectrex's capacitors are a ticking timebomb, and that they will fail and cause catastrophic damage if not preemptively replaced. 

 

I'm of the minority opinion that if done by someone with poor soldering skills (such as myself) you could end up causing damage to a console that's in working order, and that you should wait until you see issues before attempting a recap.  Perhaps if I had great skills with servicing electronics I'd feel differently, but my Vectrex currently works well, and I'm a strong believer in the saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by ls650

[BladeJunker]

If it works then leave them, if it doesn't put new ones in. I do think recapping is an opportunity to put better quality caps in than from the factory, sure were a lot of console makers that cheaped out on that component.

 

I got some old consoles that I'm pretty sure could use some new caps just to clean up AV signal quality, plus other "quality of life" mods. Some parts are custom and precious like ICs, and others like caps aren't.

[+Stephen Moss]

19 hours ago, youxia said:

I feel that sometimes in this hobby things get exaggerated and spread in a kind of viral way, for example in regard to alleged danger of using certain PSUs.

I know what you mean, like the recapping will fix everything adage I alluded to earlier, and the headphone ground fix for the Lynx which is unwise as it results in all the 5V parts of the system running at 9V. Which are often started by someone who does not know what they are doing stumbling upon something that appeared to work by accident, but which has nothing to do with finding and repairing the actual problem and then proclaiming it to all and sundry as a genuine solution to the problem which then gets disseminated by others.

 

That said, depending on what you are referring to in regards to the PSU, there is some truth in that. For example the 2600 like many such console is typically uses an unregulated PSU, using a different specked unregulated PSU can cause problems. If you are lucky it will just be the voltage regulator over heating and occasionally going into thermal shutdown for a while. If not and the input is higher than the rated voltage of any caps on the input side of the voltage regulator they can blow.

[carlsson]

On the PSU side you have common cases of the "Ingot" supplies for the Atari computers and pretty much all of the Commodore PSUs for the VIC-20 and C64 that are risky to use, mainly because they contain a voltage regulator that may come loose or malfunction due to age, meaning it doesn't regulate 9V down to 5V any longer. Basically it is the same issue as you mention for the Lynx, but unintentional. That is why a lot of people are making "saver" circuits that act like a fuse if the voltage goes beyond 5V, or simply develop brand new power supplies using modern parts and hand work to ensure build quality. However having said that, I've been using somewhere between 6-10 different Commodore PSUs of the dangerous kind without one of them malfunctioning. It might be an US/European matter, or a case of how you stored it through the years, or how careful you are about not throwing the PSU around so things could come loose inside.

 

Then again even if the risks are exaggerated, you will not jump with joy the day your precious computer/console was fried from over voltage or you found that the old caps actually have leaked corroding gunk all over the motherboard, in worst case making it unrepairable. Again it is a matter of value. I think the cutoff between maintaining an item in perfect original condition, or servicing it on precaution to ensure it still will work, lies somewhere in a value around $500-$1000, perhaps even $1500. If the market value is less than so, chances are that the buyers are more interested in a machine fully serviced to work 100% for another 10-20 years, than a machine guaranteed to not have been opened since it was manufactured 30-40 years ago.

[youxia]

2 hours ago, carlsson said:

Then again even if the risks are exaggerated, you will not jump with joy the day your precious computer/console was fried from over voltage or you found that the old caps actually have leaked corroding gunk all over the motherboard, in worst case making it unrepairable.

It's a matter of attitude. One day everything will expire, because of entropy etc. I don't assume my hardware will work forever, and if one day it keels over, then so be it.

 

If there are some reasonably easy and cheap things which could be done to alleviate this, then sure, why not - especially in cases where there is a widely accepted consensus that there is a real risk. But I'm also not going to rush to do everything possible because of some vague possibility, especially buying something like Amiga PSUs from icomp, which cost nearly twice as much as the Amiga itself.

 

I agree that the hardware's value does matter. I don't really own anything worth over 200USD (in pre-covid prices) so, again, can live with the loss. If you're investing big bucks into something then might as well spend a bit more on damage prevention. But it's not a guarantee of invulnerability. Best just accept that and enjoy the moment.

[carlsson]

I didn't know Amiga power supplies at all were at danger. I thought those were somewhat well built, in particular the later switched ones. But everyone do what they want.

 

The OP was worried about his Atari 400 in original condition would lose some of its value if it was tampered with. If we take in consideration that nothing lasts forever (and in particular us humans for certain don't), any long term resale value is a moot point. The vast majority of Atari 400's probably sit with collectors already, applying different principles on how to take care of their collection. Some will subscribe to the theory that leaving things untouched with maintain its collectability, some will argue that a working Atari is better than a broken Atari.

 

Nothing is better than samples of real life. Here is an A/V modded 400 sold for 171 Euro (203 USD), a "for parts" 400 w/o PSU + 7 cartridges sold for 80 GBP (111 USD) and a boxed 400 in "excellent" condition sold for 161 GBP (224 USD). It doesn't say if the A/V modded one was refurbished in other aspects but right now it brought in almost as much money loose as a boxed, supposedly original machine, all in the same time frame. The for parts machine might be fine if a suitable PSU is added. There was an US sold 400 with power supply but "untested" for 73 USD. There is a difference of 130 USD or 178% between this and the tested, A/V modded one.

 

I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to prove above, except that the Atari 400 doesn't seem like an ultra rare machine that the market seems to like tested & modded just as much (or more) as they like it in original condition.

 

Now I don't expect to see a half dozen Apple 1's, Kenbaks, Commodore 65's etc sold recently so I can compare final price vs condition, but my statement stands that from a value point of view, perfect original condition makes mostly sense with the far rarer machines.

[youxia]

7 minutes ago, carlsson said:

There was an US sold 400 with power supply but "untested" for 73 USD. There is a difference of 130 USD or 178% between this and the tested, A/V modded one.

"Tested" only means that it works at the time of testing. The moment the buyer plugs it in it might be already dead, or caps might leak 2 weeks later. Or never And adjectives such as "excellent" are meaningless unless applied solely to the looks. Buying this way is a bit of a gamble, really.

 

I'm not sure if there is a correlation between being somehow modified and untouched regarding the price, or at least if it can be established with any certainity. Some might see it as a plus, others as a minus. I seem to recall that latest silly-price (1.5 mil?) Apple unit I think I saw discussed on this forum had some things modded.

[carlsson]

Yes, on a $1.5M computer any single chip that has the wrong date markings would be pointed out as an anachronism that reduces its value quite a bit. Personally I disagree that any computer, no matter how legendary and rare, really would hold a such value in the long term but if some newly rich don't want to invest in art or whatever previous generations spent their money on, it is their choice.

 

Regarding excellent condition, one can hope the seller was just as skilled in properly packaging it, unless it was collected in person, so it would survive shipping. Not only from an electronics point of view, but also regarding the box, and of course all the delicate plastics. The later is true for any machine, but if you buy something that already is a bit scruffy, one more defect might not detract as much as if you're a perfectionist only looking for 9/10 or better condition units and then what you spent $200 on arrives damaged and the shipping company refuses to take responsibility even if it was insured.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

There are some things that just need to be recapped even if they aren't showing any signs of issues given their age and known history of issues. 

 

The original TurboDuo's all need their SMD caps replaced. Even the one I own that had been stored well and used frequently was showing signs of issues not long after I got it. Specifically the audio was fading in and out during game play? Finally got the tools needed and the kit an found that several of the SMDs had already leaked in the past and started to show active corrosion on the solder joints at their pads. Not all of them were showing this, but if you are already in there and you already know you got one or two bad caps, then there isn't any harm in replacing them all out as a set. 

 

Arcade monitor chassis are another case where recapping is needed. Even with use, the caps dry out and generall start to show failures within about 20 years.

 

The OG Xbox... those clock caps... They need to be ripped out and I've seen quite a few OG Xboxs showing bulged caps near the CPU section with their electrolyte starting to leak from venting.

 

One of the newest and most unexpected devices I got about 2 years ago that rerequired a recap was a Roland sound module dating from 2003. The SMD caps all looked good on it but I couldn't get any audio working from the external RCA outputs and only the TOS output was working. I decided to take it apart and was surprised to see that several of the SMDs were showing signs of corrosion around their solder pad joints as well. Replaced them all out and sure enough the module was back to full working condition again with nice, clear, and loud audio from the external RCAs and front headphone port again.

 

Then there are the Game Gears. With the exception of perhaps the last model Majesco made units, the rest are needing their caps replaced if they haven't already started to leak out all over the inside onto the PCBs. You never get used to the smell from replacing the caps on a GG.

 

So yes, there are some known devices where cap replacements isn't just a good preventive measure, but basically required at this point in time if you plan to keep that device working in good condition for years to come.

 

[youxia]

If you have the skills to do it yourself, that's grand. I, and many other people don't, so unless there is somebody living close by, it would require having to send these things somewhere. This in turn incurrs substantial costs, and, in case of monitors or more fragile computers, risk of damage in transit. Sometimes it's simply not worth it.

 

Of course this is worth taking on board and understanding before making a purchase. Which is why I did not buy that attractively-priced PET last year: I just knew the risk factor vs my complete lack of electronics skills was too much of a gamble. An Xbox on the other hand is cheap enough to take a punt on and not worry too much.

 

That aside from the fact that even if you send it off for complete recap and "servicing" something completely else can give up ghost after teh item comes back.

[carlsson]

Sometimes there are generous people with all the right tools, skills and experience who go to events, expos, meetings and offer to do recap services on the gear you brought yourself, of course for some fee + cost of materials. They might not take on anything, but the systems they already know what to replace like e.g. Amiga 1200 which mentioned just like the PC Engine TurboDuo or Game Gear.

 

The original Xbox is an interesting case. It exists in abundance and the console probably has a market value of $10 which would suggest it is a waste of time and money to service it. Then again all are equally old and the inferior caps (remember the capacitor plague) will corrode all of them into a defunct state in a matter of a few years from now, except the ones that indeed were serviced. It might indicate that by 2030, an original, working Xbox suddenly is worth 20 times more than it is today simply because all the others went dead. In that case it also is a matter how long the optical media still is readable. In particular CD-R from the 1990's are said to almost be deteriorated by now, and perhaps factory pressed CD are not that much better. In that case it doesn't matter if your old Xbox is working or dead, unless it was further modded with other form of software distribution, but that would also bring it even further from original condition.

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

There is a cost in sending your systems out to be serviced. But depending on how important it is for one of my clients to want to keep their consoles in good working order, it might very well be worth it to them? I don't know how everyone else does it in regards to the costs, but in my case I charge for the actual cost of the cap kit I purchased. So if a cap kit costs me 9.95 I'm rounding that to an even $10. Even that extra .05 doesn't cover what it cost to ship it and the taxes paid on the purchase as my state collects taxes for ALL online purchases I make. But it is close enough to keep an even amount that seems quite fair to charge to my clients. As for the labor to do the cap replacement it depends on what the item is. I'm likely to charge about $50 for most systems but if there are only a few caps to be changed out, then I'm not likely to charge anything because I'm already in the system to do other work in most cases so just charging for the cap kit seems fair for only a few caps to be changed.

 

[MikeDijital777]

I think I really depends on what it is. I pull the clock cap on every 2003/2004 xbox I work on because It is going to leak. Same with TG16 portables. but ive never thought to recap an Apple IIe or TI99...

 

I think the fine line really is if its a known issue, nothing wrong with nipping it in the bud. but if everything is working and there is no known issues, leave it alone till it needs something.