Mario Bros + POKEY: Does It Exist?

[KrunchyTC]

The only version of Mario Bros I know, is the arcade style version, with the slippery movement, and one direction jumping. I've gotten used to that, and it does make the game more of a challenge, which is ok by me.

[doug0909]

In a way I understand the preference for one direction jumping more than the preference for the slippery (non iced) platforms. 

 

I mean, in reality you can't switch directions in midair when you're jumping unless you are in the NBA, and I guess not allowing midair changes is really about not being able to fix a mistake. I like greater control while jumping, but I understand why some disagree. Plenty of classic games didn't allow midair jump direction change. 

 

But the slippery platforms, even when they aren't iced? That just makes controls less precise, and if you don't count motor vehicle racing games which have slipperiness built in for realism, I'm having trouble thinking of classic arcade games where slipperiness was a regular feature (as opposed to a negative if the slipice does his thing). I'd even go so far as to say that it was probably a less successful arcade game because of the slipperiness... I remember that upsetting me back in the day, in the arcade (I pressed the joystick in time! It stole my quarter... Galaga and Pac Man don't do that). It also upset me on the 5200, then I grew to love the game on other home ports which weren't as slippery... 

Edited September 25, 2023 by doug0909

[+darryl1970]

9 hours ago, doug0909 said:

Not sure if you know what I was referring to; this game was not released in the USA, it was based on a weird Japanese disk version with intermissions, and was part of a small famicom series (I can't remember if it's the only one, or only one of a few, which was an upgrade). 

I think Trebor clarified that I am very familiar with the Famicom disk. I was so happy that they fixed the shellcreeper sprites and added icicles, yet I was very put off by them ruining the gameplay. I wish there was a truly authentic NES version. I stand by the fact that the slip doesn't make the game harder once you get used to it. It's actually part of the charm of the game, especially when playing with a friend.

 

In a similar vein, I have a hard time going from Super Mario Bros 3 to Super Mario Bros 1, because the jump, control, and "slip" are different. It takes a while to adjust, but each control fits the version perfectly once I get the hang of it again. I have to let go of the fact that I can't do things in 1 that I can do in 3. (like scroll backwards) Once I let go, I get used to it again.

 

That was my main point. I feel that your hatred for the slip is causing a mental block, and your missing out on a masterpiece. It was perfect for that version of the game. It's truly the way the game was meant to be played. It's not harder. It's just different. Once it "clicks" it becomes second-nature. That's the charm of many Nintendo arcade games.

 

As for Nintendo ruining a generation of gamers, I meant as to how their "Classic Series" left out so much of what made the arcade ports special. It wasn't literally leaving out boards so much.  For example, Mario (or actually Jumpman) cannot jump WITH a barrel to clear it in NES Donkey Kong. That is a necessary jump in the arcade, in order to clear specific barrel patterns. The fireballs can't follow him to the top, and the crazy barrels never get more challenging. One can't pull away and point press objects. Each classic series misses gameplay elements that made the original special, even though they nailed the graphics and sound. I actually thought they did a decent job on Mario Bros, other than the horrible enemy sprite work. It was more the opposite in that case with bad sprites and more accurate game play, but I digress.

 

They later started putting these horrible conversions into PlayChoice cabinets, and these lame ports became the "arcade versions" to a new generation. Much of that generation cannot handle the arcade versions. They play the game, die instantly, and walk away, because it's not familiar to them. They didn't gain the skills to clear the real arcade version. That is sad to me, because they'll never experience the excitement we had with the original. I am talking about those situations where a bunch of your friends were standing around watching, and everybody twitched and jumped together when you narrowly escaped death.

9 hours ago, doug0909 said:

I hate that original NES version so much I never play it. IMHO the only two great home versions are Atari XE (not 800/5200, TOO SLIPPERY) and Classic Serie. 

Actually, I grew up with the 5200, and it doesn't have much slip. One of the flaws of that version was that Mario can jump backwards out of a slide, completely eliminating the slide.  Mario can often just change direction without any inertia. It didn't bother me back in the day much, because we expected limitations to our home ports. That version was much more than we expected back in 1983. Again, "I hate the NES version so much" is what is blocking you from realizing the true charm of the game. It's not harder. It's just not the lame Gameboy and Famicom disk versions. Those versions didn't capture the essence of the original.

 

9 hours ago, doug0909 said:

There's zero charm in slipping, or being unable to turn quickly or in midair. I experience those three things everyday, on my feet and bicycle. And as I get older I'm going to be slipping and bumping into stuff more. I want precision controls, whether I'm dealing with life or video games. 

I can totally relate to losing some of my video game skill as I get older. A recent electrical storm damaged a couple of my arcade game score kits, and I am having a frustrating time getting my high scores back on the new kits. Still, I think you might see things differently if you could let go of that expectation. You'll barely notice the slip, and changing direction in the air is just completely unnatural anyway.

 

A tip to keep in mind is that there is a perfect point where Mario or Luigi can reverse and jump in the opposite direction. It becomes tight, like a well-oiled machine, and you aren't even affected by the slip. It's just like anything in life. It just clicks one day, and it becomes natural. It's not really harder.

 

 

[edweird13]

I loved the arcade version. The only home version I liked was the 5200. Hopefully this version plays closer to the arcade.

[+darryl1970]

20 minutes ago, edweird13 said:

I loved the arcade version. The only home version I liked was the 5200. Hopefully this version plays closer to the arcade.

This version truly captures the feel of the arcade. @OldStyle had a passion for everything that made the arcade special, and he did a great job at capturing the essence of the original. Obviously, by the conversation above, he even added a lot of extras to expand on that.

 

I really enjoyed the 5200 version back in the day. Have you played the XE version? It captures a lot. It has a couple limitations, but most people won't notice. One example is that the game will not release enough enemies on the second round, in order to do the major point press. I think there's a limitation to the software sprite engine. However, the amount of work they did behind the scenes is so impressive. It's also a great port!

[doug0909]

On your advice I will try arcade version on this, but I am skeptical I will ever like any non-driving game in which slippage is a feature.  (Arguable exception is kc munchkin on odyssey 2, but tile based movement in a game which is largely about predicting the screen is very different than slippage in a game with tons of enemy sprites.) 

 

Like I said, I didn't like the slip in the arcade, bitd, first time I tried it. Can you name another non-driving game from bitd with slippage as a feature, particularly a platformer? I consider it much more annoying and detrimental to game play than jumping limitations (which all games have to varying degrees) and the other port changes you mention. 

 

My recollection was 5200 was the most slippery (though joysticks may have played a role, I had the original system and controllers as a kid), xe less (one of the first systems I got as a collector, and that was how my interest in the game was rekindled, along with a c64 version with poor graphics but tight controls)... and Classic Serie had the tightest controls. 

 

I do hope that the developer leaves an option for those of us who don't like slippage... 

 

It's great that you are so observant of the details of the different versions. I've cracked 150k on Classic Serie, and gotten pretty far on the xe too, but probably didn't notice half the things you did... 

Edited September 25, 2023 by doug0909

[+darryl1970]

2 hours ago, doug0909 said:

On your advice I will try arcade version on this, but I am skeptical I will ever like any non-driving game in which slippage is a feature.  (Arguable exception is kc munchkin on odyssey 2, but tile based movement in a game which is largely about predicting the screen is very different than slippage in a game with tons of enemy sprites.) 

2 hours ago, doug0909 said:

Like I said, I didn't like the slip in the arcade, bitd, first time I tried it. Can you name another non-driving game from bitd with slippage as a feature, particularly a platformer? I consider it much more annoying and detrimental to game play than jumping limitations (which all games have to varying degrees) and the other port changes you mention. 

Super Mario Bros, SMB2, SMB3, Ice climber all have slippage. Sonic also cannot stop on a dime. They only add the jump steering.  It's just that you experienced them that way for the first time, so you don't notice it.

 

I think it's just emphasized for you in the original MB, because you've played the versions that I consider "broken" first. That's what I meant when I said that Nintendo ruined a generation of gamers by neutering their home versions. (I realize they didn't make the Famicom disk version.)

2 hours ago, doug0909 said:

My recollection was 5200 was the most slippery (though joysticks may have played a role, I had the original system and controllers as a kid), xe less (one of the first systems I got as a collector, and that was how my interest in the game was rekindled, along with a c64 version with poor graphics but tight controls)... and Classic Serie had the tightest controls. 

Yeah. The 5200 barely had any slip. Sometimes Mario or Luigi could just change directions. Sometimes they'd slip a little. Even on ice, Mario and Luigi can jump in the opposite direction, and this is not correct behavior. As I've said, I still appreciate the 5200 for all that they got right, and it captured the essence better than many modern versions, especially for two players.

2 hours ago, doug0909 said:

I do hope that the developer leaves an option for those of us who don't like slippage... 

 

It's great that you are so observant of the details of the different versions. I've cracked 150k on Classic Serie, and gotten pretty far on the xe too, but probably didn't notice half the things you did... 

Oh, he is going to leave that option. It's cool that he made the game so versatile. My biggest concern is that people will take the "easy" way out and not realize that it's not really easier. Just as I mentioned above, all of those other games have the same slippage. To that effect, it's different on each. If I try to go from SMB3 to SMB1, I have trouble adjusting to the different slippage. It just takes a minute for my to snap back into my 1986 SMB1 mode.

 

Thanks. I guess I really appreciated a lot of the details that made the games special.

 

Pretty cool score. I was just thankful that a version finally had the icicles. That was my biggest disappointment with the 5200 version. We really missed those back in the day.

I am remembering correctly that the Famicom disk version had icicles, right?? I think so.... I know the XE does, as does the new 7800.

[doug0909]

1 hour ago, darryl1970 said:

I am remembering correctly that the Famicom disk version had icicles, right??

I don't know I couldn't watch all those 8 bit interludes for Ramen or whatever... 

[doug0909]

1 hour ago, darryl1970 said:

Super Mario Bros, SMB2, SMB3, Ice climber all have slippage. Sonic

I don't play SMB2 or Ice Climber much, and never got into Sonic, maybe because of the slippage. 

 

However, I just put SMB1 on and it helped me understand why I don't like the slippage in original arcade Mario so much. Basically, I like to explore and collect coins and progress in smb. I never speed run, and not only do I rarely use the dash button, but I rarely do a sustained run at all... Just pre planned ones to hop on multiple enemies or finish a stage. And when you aren't dashing or a few seconds into a run, you CAN control precisely and turn quickly. As I recall - and correct me if I'm wrong - in original arcade Mario the slippage kicks in just a moment after you start moving. 

 

I just tested the 5200 version which I haven't played in years... It kicks in not instantly, but quickly after you start moving, with three beeps (steps?)... But you are right the slippage isn't great. My 5200 joystick probably added to the feel bitd... 

 

 

[doug0909]

I'm also wondering, how well did the arcade game do? I'm betting I wasn't not the only kid who thought his quarter was stolen after slipping into a baddie, and enjoyed the tight controls on the home versions more... 

 

You didn't provide examples of other arcade games bitd with slippage, and the console games you mentioned postdate the arcade game.... IMHO tight controls in almost every game are part of what made that era of gaming so great, in the arcade and at home (perhaps better than today thanks to tight programing, minimal hardware, and crt's) and original Mario was an exception... 

 

I just realized there's another game from bitd with slippage which I loved, also on the Odyssey 2, but more comparable to Mario than kc munchkin. In the vertical shooter Attack of the Timelord, if you moved a little controls were very tight, but if you moved across a good portion of the screen there was "slippage" in that you moved faster... As I got better at shooting things I learned to play without having to slide across the screen often; not sure if the game would have been better without that feature... 

Edited September 25, 2023 by doug0909

[OldStyle]

I gotta say losing a life because of fall height in DK and DKJr always feels cheap!  Supposedly this was going to be a thing in MB.  Not sure how that would have played out but maybe sliding was included to make up for not going with fall heights, or as mentioned, to fit the environment.  It might have been lifted straight from Joust as well, a game which had a big influence on MB.   For myself, the slide always felt like a natural part of the game.  Steerable jumps felt odd the first time trying it, although got used to it.  I'd say the challenge comes from having nowhere to run pests off-screen or to hide so it pays to be tactical, surgical in a sense - choose your the battles!  Not all jumps need full commitment either, a tap/step jump will get you out of a pickle.

 

I can't claim the control and gameplay to be 1-to-1 identical however there was an abundance of care put into it getting it pretty darn close.  It plays just a touch faster and it's not as floaty.  As @darryl1970 mentioned the essence of the OG version is filled to brim here.  The steerable jump does feel very similar to the re-release version with the only difference being a slight acceleration penalty on landing, so not as much slide going on here as a result.  I'm confident there's plenty of enjoyment to be had regardless of which options are picked.

 

[SS]

Sitting here playing "Mario Bros XE" on my 800XL this morning and crossing my fingers about this version.  And let me tell you, it is very difficult to properly operate an Atari joystick with one's fingers all twisted up!  🤪

[SpongeDan]

Any updates on the status of this project? Mario Bros. was my favorite arcade game growing up, & with all the options this looked like it was going to be the ultimate version of it. I hope all is well with the developer.

[UltimateOne88]

I hope all is well with this project. Extremely impressed with what has been shown so far and would LOVE to add this to my 7800GD I received for Christmas. Happy New Year to @OldStyle, who has done a masterful job with this port, and Happy New Year to all the AA Forum members out there! May 2024 be filled with happiness, joy and new Atari adventures!