STF - VGA - HDMI/Component

[moonlight_mile]

Hi all,

    It has been quite a long time since I played with my ST but I am getting the bug to pull it out again. 
 

One of the reasons to put it on the back  burners was it’s inability to output to a modern LCD tv. 
 

I have a 1224 and that is great but I would love to get it on my tv I use for all my other Atari goodies. 
 

Being an STF it has no rf so that was always an issue. Back a number of years ago I got a hold of a box from Sal Esquivel that pushed the STF to component. Well, this box was extremely picky on what TVs it would work on. I ended up getting a smaller Sharp television that worked with it but then I read that that box may have been causing damage to the ST itself. 
 

So I am revisiting this again. Looks like some things have changed since I last attempted this. 
 

I see there is a little board that connects to the st monitor port and outputs vga. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Open-Source-Intelligent-Atari-ST-STE-video-port-adapter-/303920722396?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286
 

It claims to work on all ST models including the STF. 
 

It still only outputs a 15khz signal. This has been the crux of the issue. Would a box like the Retro-tink/ossc box be able to upscale the signal to a kHz my tv can display?  I am not overly worried about Hi-res just low and medium. 
 

Or is there another option for my dilemma?

 

If I am still out of luck I will just use my 1224. Does anyone know where I can get a nice extra long monitor cable?

 

thanks for any help!

craig

[bfollowell]

I use my STe with my OSSC using a ST SCART cable input and HDMI output. It gives beautifully crystal clear pictures that work on any HDMI capable display that I've thrown it at. I can still use the VGA input of my OSSC with a monochrome cable with a switch to use high resolution if I want to, but I rarely use high resolution. The OSSC is expensive, but it really can't be beat in terms of image quality and features.

 

 

[kodak80]

RGBtoHDMI is now possible on the Atari ST: https://github.com/c0pperdragon/Amiga-Digital-Video/issues/6

 

https://github.com/hoglet67/RGBtoHDMI

 

I have built this and connected it to a HDMI monitor.  Works and looks great.  Downside, these have to be built ATM so you need good soldering skills.  Until someone starts selling them assembled probably not an option for most users.  You do still need to socket the Shifter chip (if not already there) and connect the HSYNC and VSYNC to the shifter adatper.

[djglish]

Last year I bought an inexpensive VGA to HDMI converter on Amazon that also has a converter that will sync down to 15khz.  It was less than $20.00.  Unfortunately it is now marked as unavailable.  This would work with the ST to VGA converter that you have pictured.  I built my own cable (with a switch to go between the mon and color modes).  There are some cables available on Ebay.  Some are for color mode and others are for mono.  Make sure you get the color one if you mainly use color.  If you have an old Atari monitor cable you can make a cable fairly easily.  I can post the pinouts if you are interested

[moonlight_mile]

Last year I bought an inexpensive VGA to HDMI converter on Amazon that also has a converter that will sync down to 15khz.  It was less than $20.00.  Unfortunately it is now marked as unavailable.  This would work with the ST to VGA converter that you have pictured.  I built my own cable (with a switch to go between the mon and color modes).  There are some cables available on Ebay.  Some are for color mode and others are for mono.  Make sure you get the color one if you mainly use color.  If you have an old Atari monitor cable you can make a cable fairly easily.  I can post the pinouts if you are interested

I took a chance on one of those cheapies on Amazon. Give it a try. If it doesn’t work I will send it back. I am not looking for perfect picture just something useable.

I just need to dig up a vga cable. I know I must have one laying around somewhere.

[djglish]

Not all of the VGA to HDMI adapters will sync to 15khz.  I was lucky and someone had posted in the questions area that they had tried it with an Atari and it worked.

 

Here is the link to the one I bought.  Like I said before its currently unavailable, but might give you a better idea of what to look for,

Amazon.com: eSynic VGA to HDMI Converter Box 1080p HD Video Converter Adapter with RCA L/R Audio Input for HDTV Projector Monitor PS3 Laptop Desktop: Electronics

[moonlight_mile]

Not all of the VGA to HDMI adapters will sync to 15khz.  I was lucky and someone had posted in the questions area that they had tried it with an Atari and it worked.
 
Here is the link to the one I bought.  Like I said before its currently unavailable, but might give you a better idea of what to look for,
Amazon.com: eSynic VGA to HDMI Converter Box 1080p HD Video Converter Adapter with RCA L/R Audio Input for HDTV Projector Monitor PS3 Laptop Desktop: Electronics

Thanks. Yeah I know it is really hit and miss with those things. I’ll see what pans out from the one I ordered and keep trying til I find a good one.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

I think that here are some serious misunderstandings, maybe 'helped' with intentional confusion made by sellers (yes, myself heard plenty of false claims by many of them, just to sell something what is not really needed for potential buyer's case).

 

First inaccuracy in this thread: "One of the reasons to put it on the back  burners was it’s inability to output to a modern LCD tv. " .

It looks that I have some very special Atari STs, STE, because they are 'able to output' to modern LCD TV .  And with very good quality - because using RGB lines, not composite. And passive cable - no any conversion.

Then, this forum is full with threads about LCD monitors capable of displaying Atari ST color mode - via VGA input and proper cable - where only problematic part is 13 pin Atari video connector. Everyone with little skill can make proper cable in half hour. Multisync monitors generally.

 

"sync down to 15khz"  - nobody uses 'sync down' term. Video can be converted to different scan frequency, and that's the part what costs more, and where quality may be not so good.  And actually, Atari color modes need that scan freq. be converted to higher, 'upper' - so how word 'down' came here at all ?

 

Prices of quality converters, which produce regular VGA freq. video from PAL or NTSC scan freq. RGB (or just composite) are higher, in range of new smaller size TV - like 100 or little more bucks.  Or today PAL/NTSC RGB or composite to HDMI ...  What is important is that horizontal scan freq is what needs to be much higher - like 30 KHz instead about 15 Khz.   And btw. Atari ST monochrome has about 31 KHz hor. freq - that's why it works with most of VGA monitors.

 

This cheap (20 bucks) VGA to HDMI converters - why they are needed at all if they don't convert scan freq. ? Are now monitors, TVs without VGA input on market ?  I did not follow it, but would be no surprise to dismiss it in last few years by many of them .

 

"Not all of the VGA to HDMI adapters will sync to 15khz.  I was lucky and someone had posted in the questions area that they had tried it with an Atari and it worked."  - no need for "sync to 15KHz" (never use lower case k for Kilo) . Atari color mode is already 15 KHz. Maybe some seller told it, just to present it as something very powerful ? 

As I see, VGA to HDMI, at least cheaper ones just convert analog VGA signal to HDMI . Keeping scan frequencies. That's OK if no VGA connector on TV, Monitor. But talking about 1080p and other blah is just to fool some naive people that will get some very sharp pic from not so sharp source.

 

The real question here is, I think - how certain converter works with Atari's not interlaced video - that can cause shaking on some TVs - even on some older CRT ones. To get proper grayscale may need to add serial resistors in RGB lines.

 

I need to check what scan freqs my TV supports on it's VGA and HDMI inputs. TV has Scart input, so I never thought about using other input for Atari.

Funny thing would be if VGA work too (like by those NEC, Dell monitors capable of 15 KHz) .

 

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Looked TV specs (Philips 24pft4022/12) - it says only 50/60 Hz vertical .  And yes, it can not Atari monochrome (71 Hz). No details is it staying for all inputs.

And one of seller WEBpages  says - only 60 Hz mentioned (in PAL/Secam land) ,  type: "LED television" , picture generation technology: "LED" .

Now, that latest is pure lie (even if very maybe not intentional) .  It is LCD. Real LED TVs, monitors are still much more expensive.

Welcome to 21-first of 21-firsts ? Wait, when this century actually started ? I mean not in some people heads, but really .

[ijor]

On 4/30/2021 at 8:16 PM, kodak80 said:

RGBtoHDMI is now possible on the Atari ST: https://github.com/c0pperdragon/Amiga-Digital-Video/issues/6

 

https://github.com/hoglet67/RGBtoHDMI

 

Looks great. Note that there is a minor issue with this method. I just left a comment on that github discussion.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

"RGBtoHDMI is now possible on the Atari ST" - interesting formulation. Like it is possible only because someone find a way, and not because it is physically possible. Yeah, I always hated posts/messages starting with: "is to possible to ...." - where 'is it possible' actually means: will you  spend more-less time to solve some problem for free. It is not about is it possible. Playing with words. Maybe just say it polite: you can now do it without figuring, developing self the solution.

 

[moonlight_mile]

Ah. I broke down and bought an OSSC. I am sure I can find other uses for it. I tried one of the cheaply vga-hdmi converters. I didn’t have much hope but sometimes those Chinese boxes do surprise me.

Let yaw’ll know how I make out.

[bfollowell]

3 hours ago, moonlight_mile said:

Ah. I broke down and bought an OSSC. I am sure I can find other uses for it. I tried one of the cheaply vga-hdmi converters. I didn’t have much hope but sometimes those Chinese boxes do surprise me.

Let yaw’ll know how I make out.

 

You'd be hard pressed to beat an OSSC with much of anything. I only had so-so result with VGA. That could've been the cable I was using though. I bought a Cool Novelties SCART cable for my STe and using that with my OSSC, the picture us unbelievable. Of course, that's only for low or medium resolution, but I rarely have need or desire to run in high, and I could always use VGA if I do.

 

The RGBtoHDMI mod is the only thing that I've seen that even comes close or surpasses the image I get out of my OSSC.

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

 I made Atari ST(E) RGB to VGA cable , what means connecting R,G,B signals directly, or via 100 Ohm resistors if contrast is too strong. V and H sync lines directly, and GND .  And it works with Philips TV mentioned above . Need to set vertical size to fill screen. Works in both - PAL (50 Hz) and NTSC (60 Hz) modes.  This was to expect from TV/monitor capable of those freqs. via Scart input.

[mdivancic]

I love my OSSC. Using VGA and one of the many ST2VGA switches I can run all three resolutions. I also use it for other retro computers.

[moonlight_mile]

Does anyone have an Atari st profile for the ossc?

[moonlight_mile]

Might be hard to tell but this is a pic of the output from the ossc.

I will do a hi-res pic next time I go and work on the st.

[moonlight_mile]

Lots of noise on the desktop but the windows are pretty clean.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

It's not noise. Let's say like this: pixels from Atari match not pixels on LCD display.

Try with setting horizontal width and pos. for better quality.

[bfollowell]

Yes, @ParanoidLittleMan is right. I use an older ASUS 1080p monitor for my STe and I get similar lines using a VGA cable for high resolution. I can usually adjust the horizontal width and get most, if not all of the jail bars out of my image. I use a Cool Novelties STe SCART cable for low and medium resolution and I've never experienced anything like that in those resolutions. Everything is crystal clear perfect. It seems like I'd taken a picture of my screen in high resolution way back when, I'll have to see if I can dig them up.

 

Anyway, you should be able to clear that up considerably, if not completely.

 

[moonlight_mile]

Yeah I fooled with all the settings on the ossc and the tv and it never really cleared up. I am sure it is an easy fix but I foresee very few time I need to pop into hi res I can pull out my straight vga to hdmi cable. That seems to work pretty well for hi res.

[Zzap69]

On 5/14/2021 at 8:18 PM, moonlight_mile said:

Does anyone have an Atari st profile for the ossc?

My profile looks like this in Mono

Here http://pbnl.byethost7.com/ossc/profiles/ you can modify your ossc settings, but note your settings before you overwrite them.

ossc_profile_0.88_Atari_ST.json

[Zzap69]

And for anyone who's interested, I've use the numbers from this thread https://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=25522 to fiddle out the proper timings.

Here are samples of medium and low resolution:

[moonlight_mile]

Thanks a lot! Gonna fool around with it this weekend. Could you upload your med/low res profile?

[Zzap69]

12 minutes ago, moonlight_mile said:

Thanks a lot! Gonna fool around with it this weekend. Could you upload your med/low res profile?

I already did. ?

They are in the same Profile. As you can set different settings for different resolutions in the same profile 50Hz, 60Hz and 70Hz are all covered. Only Problem I got so far is, that I have to adjust phase every now and then, mostly in mono, sometimes even after a reset.