JiffyDOS - with or without switch?

[+OLD CS1]

Never since I installed JiffyDOS in my C64 then my 128D have I ever needed to disable it, either on the console or in the drives.  That and my visceral reaction to the adulteration of a device with a silver out-of-place toggle switch.

 

It is a question I have had and a position I have held for a long time.  What say you?

[+sm3]

17 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

Never since I installed JiffyDOS in my C64 then my 128D have I ever needed to disable it, either on the console or in the drives.  That and my visceral reaction to the adulteration of a device with a silver out-of-place toggle switch.

 

It is a question I have had and a position I have held for a long time.  What say you?

 

I use a CMD 3.5" drive and 1541 clone with JiffyDOS already built-in and the kernal portion with my Turbo Chameleon. I have never had to disable it, but I think the main reason you might is due to games, right? perhaps multiloading type games.

 

I would never install a switch though, don't like alterations to my original equipment like that. 

[+OLD CS1]

36 minutes ago, sm3 said:

I use a CMD 3.5" drive and 1541 clone with JiffyDOS already built-in and the kernal portion with my Turbo Chameleon. I have never had to disable it, but I think the main reason you might is due to games, right? perhaps multiloading type games.

Envious of your 3.5" drive, but I have a CMD HD with a 256MB SD in a SCSI2SD.  Works a damn treat.  Yeah, from what I understand, it is usually about games but I have never had to disable mine for any games.  I believe I might have disabled it when I was using the WarpSpeed cartridge, but now I cannot recall.

40 minutes ago, sm3 said:

I would never install a switch though, don't like alterations to my original equipment like that. 

Same.

[+sm3]

It's one of the reasons I like using the kernal replacement feature from hardware like TC64, EzFlash or 1541 Ultimate. 

 

Of course I'm not a power user for Commodore stuff so

[motrucker]

I've been using a C-64 since 1983, and a C-128 since 1986. I always install a switch on the computer for Jiffy DOS. I guess I am not that much of a purist - and new cases can be bought for the C-64C.

You don't need a switch on the drive (any drive), because the ROM in the computer will tell the drive ROM what to use. (remember that?)

Warp Speed will work with JD active, sort of, but it works better with the JD ROM turned off. Also true of several other cartridges.

Edit - I just noticed that vote counter isn't working. I marked "Yes, there are times when it needs to be disabled. " but that isn't shown.

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by motrucker

[+OLD CS1]

30 minutes ago, motrucker said:

Warp Speed will work with JD active, sort of, but it works better with the JD ROM turned off. Also true of several other cartridges.

I might have left it on; I cannot remember.  After I got JiffyDOS, I only ever used WarpSpeed for the sector editor and the assembly monitor.

31 minutes ago, motrucker said:

Edit - I just noticed that vote counter isn't working. I marked "Yes, there are times when it needs to be disabled. " but that isn't shown.

Does seem that way.  @Albert?

[Albert]

35 minutes ago, motrucker said:

Edit - I just noticed that vote counter isn't working. I marked "Yes, there are times when it needs to be disabled. " but that isn't shown.

That is...strange, I haven't seen that before with voting.  I am not sure why it might be doing that, but I'll watch this thread to see if it remains stuck with just OLD CS1's vote (that's all I'm seeing at the moment).  It's possible something is being cached, in particular Cloudflare is a reverse proxy for AtariAge and caches a lot of content, but generally only static content, so it should not be caching threads like this.

 

 ..Al

[brain]

4 hours ago, motrucker said:

 

You don't need a switch on the drive (any drive), because the ROM in the computer will tell the drive ROM what to use. (remember that?)

 

 

 

 

As someone who knows the internals of JD Drive ROM code, I would argue the above.  The latter part is true, but if the game bypasses computer ROM routines, the drive code ROM changes will sometimes get in the way.

 

I tend to put the switch int he tape port, out of the way, or one can make a magnet switch to keep teh case clean (or use a ROM setup that leverages the RESTORE key or whatever to make the switch)  Magnets on the case is the best idea, IMHO, as it's keeps the case clean, but offers a way to config.

 

jim

 

[+OLD CS1]

1 hour ago, brain said:

or use a ROM setup that leverages the RESTORE key or whatever to make the switch

I like this idea.  I have one of those kits, but I have yet to install it.  In one of my old bread-boxes I had a circuit which would reset the computer with the RESTORE key was held down for a couple of seconds.

[carlsson]

Speaking of tape, if you ever need to connect a tape recorder to your computer, from what I can tell you need to switch back to default ROMs which would be reason enough for me to install a switch in the computer half. When it comes to custom loaders, I don't know if most of the recent ones take JiffyDOS into consideration or if like Jim writes above, sometimes the JD part can be in the way for those loaders. I suppose it depends quite a lot exactly what you are using your computer for and which peripherals you intend to use with it. If you only run disk based software, stuff that normally uses Kernel loading, perhaps only business and productivity applications, you might get away without any switches at all. The more games/demo oriented you become, and the more you require other devices than floppy drive, the more important switches to get it to factory default become.

[derSammler]

4 hours ago, carlsson said:

Speaking of tape, if you ever need to connect a tape recorder to your computer, from what I can tell you need to switch back to default ROMs which would be reason enough for me to install a switch in the computer half.

This! I have a good collection of games on tape and when I learned that JiffyDOS has the tape routines removed, I got rid of it (of JiffyDOS, not the tapes). So for full function of your C64 with JiffyDOS, you *need* to install a switch.

Edited September 2, 2021 by derSammler

[bjonte]

When it comes to custom loaders, I don't know if most of the recent ones take JiffyDOS into consideration or if like Jim writes above, sometimes the JD part can be in the way for those loaders.

In general, the custom loaders just send their own drive code to the drive RAM and execute it. So JiffyDOS won’t be in the way there. However, the kernal ROM has been modified so if you call kernal stuff without using the standard system vectors, you may make your program incompatible.

[carlsson]

1 hour ago, bjonte said:

However, the kernal ROM has been modified so if you call kernal stuff without using the standard system vectors, you may make your program incompatible.

Yes, this was exactly what I was worried about. Custom loaders that try to make direct calls into ROMs instead of using official vectors. Then again those custom loaders would probably fail with the majority of clone drives too, since many of those consist of 1541 ROMs where instructions and sometimes entire routines have been scrambled around in order to not be binary identical to Commodore's own, as an attempt to escape any legal action due to dumb judges who can't rule two binary files similar but not identical.

[motrucker]

On 9/1/2021 at 11:47 PM, brain said:

As someone who knows the internals of JD Drive ROM code, I would argue the above.  The latter part is true, but if the game bypasses computer ROM routines, the drive code ROM changes will sometimes get in the way.

jim

 

I understand this point, and it makes perfect sense. I have one question though  - since the drive ROM can "get in the way", why has there never been a switch included with that ROM, or at least more mention of the potential problem?

 

[+OLD CS1]

22 minutes ago, motrucker said:

I understand this point, and it makes perfect sense. I have one question though  - since the drive ROM can "get in the way", why has there never been a switch included with that ROM, or at least more mention of the potential problem?

Additionally, how many examples are there of conflicts with JD, either in the console or on the drives?

[brain]

On 9/3/2021 at 8:38 PM, motrucker said:

I understand this point, and it makes perfect sense. I have one question though  - since the drive ROM can "get in the way", why has there never been a switch included with that ROM, or at least more mention of the potential problem?

 

Sorry for the late response (no notification).  The 1541 drive ROMs do contain a switch.  1571 and 1581 ROMs did not, for different reasons.  1581 saw no copy protected disk drive code, so no need there.  The 1571 didn't get one because the ROM was already modded from the 1541, and so enough was already changed that critical drive code would not run on the stock 1571 ROM if it expected very specific 1541 ROM routine placement.

 

[brain]

On 9/3/2021 at 9:01 PM, OLD CS1 said:

Additionally, how many examples are there of conflicts with JD, either in the console or on the drives?

Not a ton, and less now, since most games were cracked.  I think my original Rambo had to have stock JD.

 

[1980gamer]

I don't remember ever having an issue.  I also used Super Snapshot IV with it.

 

Looking back, I did have multiple drives connected and maybe just put certain games into drive 9 and forgot all about it?

 

[mdivancic]

Many years ago I picked up a 125D with the switch installed on the front. I think the only time I have ever turned it off is when I hit the switch with the keyboard. 

[Tempest]

JiffyDos didn't like my original Impossible Mission disk.  That's the only one I've run across so far. 

[snowpile]

The 1541 ultimate II+ IEC feature is documented to not be compatible with JiffyDOS and I can confirm I had to flip the JiffyDOS switch to off in order to use the IEC Drive and Printer feature. Again note:IEC Feature (normal mounting of disk images is fine etc). There was a game recently too. Now on a drive? Maybe once.

[DragonGrafx-16]

I use Jiffydos on a EasyFlash 3 so I'm not locked into it.

[RangerG]

Does JiffyDos work on the Kung Fu Flash?

[DragonGrafx-16]

13 hours ago, RangerG said:

Does JiffyDos work on the Kung Fu Flash?

I don't think so... it needs to support loading kernals. I would get an EasyFlash 3 for this.

Edited May 12, 2022 by DragonGrafx-16