130XE what mod is this & how to reverse it?

[Gitbizy]

I long time ago I purchased this 130XE and it was already moded with a 320kb mod.  The switch in the rear is 3 position - one comes up with something like XL-FIX IT (sort of a memo pad), one boots into basic and the third brings up a self test routine.

 

What I would like to do is add in the SOPHIA video mod and the U1MB mod, but I am presuming I have to reverse this one, and there are a few things that concern me on the setup - namely the double stacked chips.

 

**Any ideas what all the resistors soldered to the SIO connector are for??

 

Any ideas on how to go from this to the U1MB mod??

 

(click to see big versions of the pictures)

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Gitbizy

[Beeblebrox]

@Gitbizy Looks like a custom multi OS given the module is plugged into the OS socket. However aside the Ram upgrade and this, there could be more upgrades in place I gfuess.  Not very experienced in this area and others will be of greater help I am sure.

 

Given this upgrade has many connections to the board and various ICs, and may have involved replaced components, (resistors, etc), jumper wires and even cut traces, you might not find it is as easy to successfully reverse. You also may find some more work exists on the underside of the board too.

Could you post a photo of the underside as well to help the forum further identify the mod/advise?

 

Might also be worth posting a pic or the details of the revision of the board.

 

I've avoided popping an U1MB upgrade into my modded 65XE, (which has a custom 320K and Stereo upgrades from 25years back), for this very reason tbh.

 

The U1MB upgrade itself is relatively easy and in the process replaces the OS and MMU chips so technically at least you wouldn't have to source an OS chip if you did reverse this. 

 

I've never had the chance to own or install a Sophia mod. (Waiting for the Sophia 2 in 2022).

 

Being an XE it typically hasn't got socketed ICs, and your's is no different, so you will have to factor into any work removing chips and socketing them. (Only the GTIA appears socketed on yours btw)

 

Here is a helpful annotated image of one of the revisions of the 130XE board:

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Beeblebrox

[Gitbizy]

@Beeblebrox I will take out the mobo and take a pic of the back.  I was kind of thinking about whether I should bother trying to reverse it or just find another unmodified 130XE...  for sure the traces are what I'm worried about.

 

 

[Mclaneinc]

Not sure what the other mods are but there's more than one mod going on there, a multi OS can be done just from the OS socket, well I had one that was OS socket only with no wires to any other part of the board, just wires to a switch to select the os. I don't know what the mod is near the front of the board by the mount, but it looks very dodgy, I can't make out if bent out legs are meant to be touching or it's just super messy soldering.

 

The Multi OS mod is safe to just unplug and put back a real OS chip.

 

Look out for any traces being cut if you do remove all the mods...You can always run a jumper wire if you find one.

[Beeblebrox]

@Gitbizy  Sure, could well be easier to source a cheap unmodified A8 for sure.

I'd wait and see what others suggest. Who knows, it might easily be reversed.

 

If you do go for sourcing another unmodified A8 then that also does open it up in terms of which A8 you get - unless of course you have ya heart set on the XE. 

 

I have three of the XE models, as well as multiple 800XLs and a 600XL, among other A8s. I've installed U1MB in all at one point or another.

 

Whilst I do love the XE, in terms of modding IMHO the 800XL is probably the one I'd recommend out of the XE and XLs. Again this is totally my opinion of course, but aside from being a very hardy model, it has a few things over the XE for adding the U1MB to IMHO:

 

1) If you source a Hong Kong made 800XL then all the ICs should be socketed, saving you some hassle.

2) I find there is more space for adding mods. My driver 800XL has tones of em crammed in there.

3) Build quality is better generally than the XE line. That is both in terms of the PCB's traces and vias as well as the layout of the componentry, (and possibly also in terms of passive componetry). XE traces can lift more easily when doing solder work than on the XLs.

4) Stock video output is generally better - some of the XE's I've had have awful stock video outputs. Although you do generally have to hook up the Chroma line on most 800XLs (with the exception of the 800XLF), if you want to use S-video. (However if you are installing a Sophia mod then this is all a moot point anyway I think)

5) Cartridge port is top loading on XLs - IMHO waaay better than the rear cartridge port placement for the XE for accessability. (Especially in the case of using a modern cart system like SIDE3 or AVG, etc. Getting to my SDcard on the SIDE3 is easy on my XLs, not so on my XEs). Also carts hanging off the back restrict placement on desks, and flex when plugged into the XEs (least that's my experience).

6) Although the types and quality of the keyboards on 800XLs vary, generally if you can source one with an AWC or ALPS made keyboard, you'll be happy. (There is a thread here on keyboard variants)

 

Don't get me wrong. I love the XEs also. (BITD I had both an 800XL and a 130XE). However having installed the U1MB, (and other mods), in both XLs and XEs I thought I'd just put it out there. 

 

Anyways, as I say perhaps see if anyone can advise you about your current 130XE.

 

EDIT: also if you do attempt removal of any of the mods in the 130XE, document everything and take pics as you do. (Take hi res pics both sids of the board to before undertaking anything. This has saved me a world of pain in the past as a visual reference for problem solving). That way you can trace things back should things not work post removal. If you are reverting everything back before you then go for the new mod installations, then you will need an OS chip. If you have a spare somewhere great, otherwise they are dirt cheap, (well at least I've found they are in the UK on Ebay).

 

Best of luck.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Beeblebrox

[BillC]

The aftermarket firmware module is a CSS Ultra Speed Plus OS, it contains 3 different OS's and is fairly rare. IIRC the US+ firmware contains a RAM diagnostic that can test all the RAM in an 800XL with a Newell 1MB upgrade(1088kB).

Edited December 22, 2021 by BillC

[_The Doctor__]

I would not do much of anything to this 130XE, it's already upgraded nicely... I'd make sure the caps are snipped off the SIO Data in Data out and CMD lines...

Edited December 22, 2021 by _The Doctor__

[Gitbizy]

7 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

I would not do much of anything to this 130XE, it's already upgraded nicely... I'd make sure the caps are snipped off the SIO Data in Data out and CMD lines...

Hi Doc-  can you go a bit further on this reply…. 

[Gitbizy]

1 hour ago, Beeblebrox said:

@Gitbizy  Sure, could well be easier to source a cheap unmodified A8 for sure.

I'd wait and see what others suggest. Who knows, it might easily be reversed.

 

If you do go for sourcing another unmodified A8 then that also does open it up in terms of which A8 you get - unless of course you have ya heart set on the XE. 

 

I have three of the XE models, as well as multiple 800XLs and a 600XL, among other A8s. I've installed U1MB in all at one point or another.

 

Whilst I do love the XE, in terms of modding IMHO the 800XL is probably the one I'd recommend out of the XE and XLs. Again this is totally my opinion of course, but aside from being a very hardy model, it has a few things over the XE for adding the U1MB to IMHO:

 

1) If you source a Hong Kong made 800XL then all the ICs should be socketed, saving you some hassle.

2) I find there is more space for adding mods. My driver 800XL has tones of em crammed in there.

3) Build quality is better generally than the XE line. That is both in terms of the PCB's traces and vias as well as the layout of the componentry, (and possibly also in terms of passive componetry). XE traces can lift more easily when doing solder work than on the XLs.

4) Stock video output is generally better - some of the XE's I've had have awful stock video outputs. Although you do generally have to hook up the Chroma line on most 800XLs (with the exception of the 800XLF), if you want to use S-video. (However if you are installing a Sophia mod then this is all a moot point anyway I think)

5) Cartridge port is top loading on XLs - IMHO waaay better than the rear cartridge port placement for the XE for accessability. (Especially in the case of using a modern cart system like SIDE3 or AVG, etc. Getting to my SDcard on the SIDE3 is easy on my XLs, not so on my XEs). Also carts hanging off the back restrict placement on desks, and flex when plugged into the XEs (least that's my experience).

6) Although the types and quality of the keyboards on 800XLs vary, generally if you can source one with an AWC or ALPS made keyboard, you'll be happy. (There is a thread here on keyboard variants)

 

Don't get me wrong. I love the XEs also. (BITD I had both an 800XL and a 130XE). However having installed the U1MB, (and other mods), in both XLs and XEs I thought I'd just put it out there. 

 

Anyways, as I say perhaps see if anyone can advise you about your current 130XE.

 

EDIT: also if you do attempt removal of any of the mods in the 130XE, document everything and take pics as you do. (Take hi res pics both sids of the board to before undertaking anything. This has saved me a world of pain in the past as a visual reference for problem solving). That way you can trace things back should things not work post removal. If you are reverting everything back before you then go for the new mod installations, then you will need an OS chip. If you have a spare somewhere great, otherwise they are dirt cheap, (well at least I've found they are in the UK on Ebay).

 

Best of luck.

How do I know if a unit was made in HK?

[_The Doctor__]

the bodge of capacitors on the sio port... the caps on those three pins need to go. They hamper high speed sio, You can use a buffered sio splitter to get around that as well, but simply put snip the caps and you are good to go no matter what. Tons of threads on AA to cover it.

[_The Doctor__]

an 800XL made in HK will say Hong Kong on it's lable...

[Beeblebrox]

13 minutes ago, Gitbizy said:

How do I know if a unit was made in HK?

@Gitbizy   Easy - on the underside of the XL will be a label, if it says made in Hong Kong it's almost certainly all socketed. If made in Taiwan then likely not socketed OR only partially socketed.

 

I have 3 x 800XLs, one is fully socketed, (Hong Kong), another no sockets, (Taiwan), and the other with only half of the 40pin ICs socketed, (another Taiwan). (Of course the latter could have been a previous owner having socketed them). I've had other HK made and all have been socketed from what looks like the factory.

 

AFAIK it's generally accepted that HK made 800XLs are all socketed. Same goes for 600XLs, although AFAIK all 600XLs are socketed and were made in HK only, not Taiwan. (Might be wrong on the latter mind).

 

Just reading BillC's reply earlier it sounds like it's worth just keeping this 130XE as is if the upgrade is rare.  If you still wanna go with the U1MB/Sofia then perhaps source another A8 for it if you like? 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Beeblebrox

[Mclaneinc]

9 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

the bodge of capacitors on the sio port... the caps on those three pins need to go. They hamper high speed sio, You can use a buffered sio splitter to get around that as well, but simply put snip the caps and you are good to go no matter what. Tons of threads on AA to cover it.

You sure you mean Caps on the sio lines?

 

Look like resistors to me, not got glasses on but 33 or 330 ohm?

 

[_The Doctor__]

they are caps, not resistors... look at the color bands and the color of the components. I won't be flogging any more horses on this one.

[Mclaneinc]

29 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

they are caps, not resistors... look at the color bands and the color of the components. I won't be flogging any more horses on this one.

 

We must report that no horses were harmed in the answering of this question..... Northolt Humane Society..

 

But to be fair to me, when I went to look at the threads you mentioned (not because I didn't believe you, I wanted to read them) there was just as much confusion from others as to what they were, add to that, I sold components and never saw any caps in packaging like that. I've leave you to debate flagellating horses..

Edited December 22, 2021 by Mclaneinc

[+Nezgar]

2 hours ago, Mclaneinc said:

But to be fair to me, when I went to look at the threads you mentioned (not because I didn't believe you, I wanted to read them) there was just as much confusion from others as to what they were, add to that, I sold components and never saw any caps in packaging like that. I've leave you to debate flagellating horses..

These are the "speed limiting" capacitors on a later reversion of the XE motherboard. (they have a "C" prefix for capacitor) C76/C77 exist on every XE motherboard revision i believe, but C103/C104 was in the later revision negating the need for the wad of bodge capacitors on the SIO jack of earlier rev motherboards. Earlier XE motherboards have a wad of them soldered between the ground plane behind the SIO jack to every pin, as seen in @Gitbizy's original post.

 

Edit: and Damb... whomever did the upgrades went through the work of desoldering the eight 1x64 DRAM chips and replacing with 1x256's but didn't bother installing sockets while they were at it! ? Regardless - with these upgrades now identified, you could potentially resell it for a higher price, and acquire another stock XE.

[Gitbizy]

I think I am going to take the approach of keeping this 130XE "as-is" and look to get an 800XL model to mod going forward.  I haven't decided whether to sell this current 130XE or not...

 

[_The Doctor__]

you can't confuse the confused already because the confused already are already confused. The problem is when the confused already introduce confusion to the masses who wouldn't be confused unless the already confused decide to make confusing points to confuse them already!

[Gitbizy]

I personally am not confused!  LOL.

 

I am going to snip off all the caps on the SIO port (as recommended), give the 130XE mobo a good clean and put it back together.  Not much more I want to do on that right now.

 

[Gitbizy]

12 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

@Gitbizy Looks like a custom multi OS given the module is plugged into the OS socket. However aside the Ram upgrade and this, there could be more upgrades in place I gfuess.  Not very experienced in this area and others will be of greater help I am sure.

 

Given this upgrade has many connections to the board and various ICs, and may have involved replaced components, (resistors, etc), jumper wires and even cut traces, you might not find it is as easy to successfully reverse. You also may find some more work exists on the underside of the board too.

Could you post a photo of the underside as well to help the forum further identify the mod/advise?

 

Might also be worth posting a pic or the details of the revision of the board.

 

I've avoided popping an U1MB upgrade into my modded 65XE, (which has a custom 320K and Stereo upgrades from 25years back), for this very reason tbh.

 

The U1MB upgrade itself is relatively easy and in the process replaces the OS and MMU chips so technically at least you wouldn't have to source an OS chip if you did reverse this. 

 

I've never had the chance to own or install a Sophia mod. (Waiting for the Sophia 2 in 2022).

 

Being an XE it typically hasn't got socketed ICs, and your's is no different, so you will have to factor into any work removing chips and socketing them. (Only the GTIA appears socketed on yours btw)

 

Here is a helpful annotated image of one of the revisions of the 130XE board:

 

@Beeblebrox

Do you have a picture like this for the 600XL?

[Beeblebrox]

3 hours ago, Gitbizy said:

@Beeblebrox

Do you have a picture like this for the 600XL?

@Gitbizy I don't have one to hand but I am sure someone else can provide 

 

Incidentally 600XLs are great - I love em - Great build quality, stock video and I've installed U1MB in 2 x of em - but if you are thinking about getting one for lots of mods obviously bear in mind they have the smallest footprint so less space inside. Doesn't mean you can cram a load inside at all. Just worth mentioning. Also a stock 600XL needs to be upgraded to 64Kb RAM before you then install U1MB. See my signature below for a link to a post of mine re when I did all of this for one of my 600XL's U1MB install, (since sold that 600XL to further fund my Atari addiction)

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Beeblebrox

[Gitbizy]

1 minute ago, Beeblebrox said:

@Gitbizy I don't have one to hand but I am sure someone else can provide 

 

Incidentally 600XLs are great - I love em - Great build quality, stock video and I've installed U1MB in 2 x of em - but if you are thinking about getting one for lots of mods obviously bear in mind they have the smallest footprint so less space inside. Doesn't mean you can cram a load inside at all. Just worth mentioning. Also a stock 600XL needs to be upgraded to 64Kb RAM before you then install U1MB. See my signature below for a link to a post of mine re when I did all of this for one of my 600XL's U1MB install, (since sold that 600XL to further fund my Atari addiction)

 

Thanks… do how do I get an audio output on the 600/800xl if I do the Sophia 2 mod?

[Beeblebrox]

16 minutes ago, Gitbizy said:

Thanks… do how do I get an audio output on the 600/800xl if I do the Sophia 2 mod?

@Gitbizy Not 100% sure but I would imagine if you trawl AA there will be topic posts. Also look at Flashjazzcat's Youtube videos as he has done some on Sophia installs. Good choice if you go for a 600XL, they are fantastic IMHO.

[mimo]

2 hours ago, Gitbizy said:

Thanks… do how do I get an audio output on the 600/800xl if I do the Sophia 2 mod?

Use the usual din av connector to an amplifier if using hdmi or to the 3.5 mm audio in if using DVI 

 

[Mclaneinc]

9 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

you can't confuse the confused already because the confused already are already confused. The problem is when the confused already introduce confusion to the masses who wouldn't be confused unless the already confused decide to make confusing points to confuse them already!

You have cornered the market on unneeded confusion there Doc, you can now return to beating horses.. Happy Xmas.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Mclaneinc
Spalling..... :)