Thoughts About the Atari 1400XL & 1450XLD

[ColecoFan1981]

If Atari had never released the seemingly buggy 1200XL at the start of 1983, then maybe THAT could instead have become the 1400XL. If they had waited a bit longer, then the 1400XL might actually have been released and Atari might have weathered the storm that was the better sales of the Commodore 64 a little longer.

 

The 1400XL, as it was, seemed to be 100 percent complete and ready for release when then Atari CEO James J. Morgan (who took over from Ray Kassar in August 1983) dropped the ball and canceled it. Either way, it would have been so exciting to not just have the ability to use the disks and cartridges from the prior 400 and 800, but also to have a modem and voice synthesizer in it. The 1450XLD was similar, but also included a floppy disk drive in an enlarged casing, as well as using a different and faster disk drive controller.

 

~Ben

Edited February 27, 2022 by ColecoFan1981

[Justin Payne]

I wanted the XLD so bad as a kid but as an adult, it wasn't the best idea. First off, that 300 baud modem would soon be outdated. The 1050 was a great drive if you got a Doubler but that required a modification and if you didn't want to do that, you wouldn't buy that system. A hardware voice synthesizer would have been cool and a great addition to software at the time but let's be honest, those things didn't sound all that great. Now, if it could have been a hardware version of SAM, then I would have been impressed but since the C64 was soon to take the wind out of Atari's sales (get it), I think Atari should have focused on updating their system's capabilities. Placing things in a case isn't really that innovative. It's bundling.
Adding more hardware sprites and improving the sound might have done it but that should have happened earlier. Too bad Warner didn't understand the industry.

[Lord Thag]

On 2/26/2022 at 11:19 PM, Justin Payne said:

I wanted the XLD so bad as a kid but as an adult, it wasn't the best idea. First off, that 300 baud modem would soon be outdated. The 1050 was a great drive if you got a Doubler but that required a modification and if you didn't want to do that, you wouldn't buy that system. A hardware voice synthesizer would have been cool and a great addition to software at the time but let's be honest, those things didn't sound all that great. Now, if it could have been a hardware version of SAM, then I would have been impressed but since the C64 was soon to take the wind out of Atari's sales (get it), I think Atari should have focused on updating their system's capabilities. Placing things in a case isn't really that innovative. It's bundling.
Adding more hardware sprites and improving the sound might have done it but that should have happened earlier. Too bad Warner didn't understand the industry.

Yeah, this is how I feel as well

 

If they'd offered a model that had more (or expandable) RAM, and/or a video circuit that allowed full sprites like the 64 (rather than just PMG), or a more integrated command line DOS (like the later Spartados) the XL line might have been seen as real competitors to the c64. As it was, it was basically a slightly ROM updated 800 with a bit more RAM. All the later XL and XE pcs were similar.

Still an amazing computer, mind (the fact that a '79 computer design could compete with the 64 graphically shows how good a design it was), and it's by far my favorite from the era, but all of the later Atari 8bits were mystifyingly similar to the 'last gen' models.

[zzip]

I think a model with a built in disk drive would have been a good thing to have, but the 1400XL seems unnecessary

10 minutes ago, Lord Thag said:

and/or a video circuit that allowed full sprites like the 64 (rather than just PMG)

yeah we would have all loved that, but we know by now how that would play out...   very few games would have taken advantage because the older models don't support it.

[evilmoo]

53 minutes ago, zzip said:

I think a model with a built in disk drive would have been a good thing to have, but the 1400XL seems unnecessary

Yes or no, depending on what hardware you had already.  And how much of a budget you had at the time.

[zzip]

16 minutes ago, evilmoo said:

Yes or no, depending on what hardware you had already.  And how much of a budget you had at the time.

I think an all-in-one unit is appealing to some people, cuts down on cabling and desk-space.   Apple did it with the Apple IIc.    Seeing how slim the Apple IIc is, it makes the 1450XLD seem larger than it needs to be.

 

but built-in speech synthesizer seems unnecessary, and mostly a reaction to what TI was doing, and was soon moot as TI left the market.   built-in modem is nice for the reasons above, but 300 baud would have been obsolete too quickly

[Lord Thag]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

I think a model with a built in disk drive would have been a good thing to have, but the 1400XL seems unnecessary

yeah we would have all loved that, but we know by now how that would play out...   very few games would have taken advantage because the older models don't support it.

I was thinking more like what Atari did with the CTIA->GTIA, just add functionality to the original specs. Our hypothetical 'Super GTIA' might have been 100% backwards compatible with a few new sprite screen modes that used the new chip, maybe, much like how the 7800 has backwards compatibility with the 2600. Would have been cool had they done that.

[zzip]

2 minutes ago, Lord Thag said:

I was thinking more like what Atari did with the CTIA->GTIA, just add functionality to the original specs. Our hypothetical 'Super GTIA' might have been 100% backwards compatible with a few new sprite screen modes that used the new chip, maybe, much like how the 7800 has backwards compatibility with the 2600. Would have been cool had they done that.

it would be great if they could pull it off.

but unfortunately the history of Atari computers was that 95% of developers only supported the original spec to maximize sales, whether that be 810 disk drive, 48K RAM, or CTIA.    Similar thing happened on ST side where most developers ignored STe/Falcon features

[Justin Payne]

3 hours ago, zzip said:

I think a model with a built in disk drive would have been a good thing to have, but the 1400XL seems unnecessary

yeah we would have all loved that, but we know by now how that would play out...   very few games would have taken advantage because the older models don't support it.

Yeah, that's the rub, isn't it. More capabilities but would companies code for it. I think it would have a lot more attention from companies since it was more "cutting edge" but you're right about that large amount of systems that would be out of luck where the C64 was a brand new system with no dependency to legacy systems. Now, if they could sell an add on to the legacy Atari's, then maybe but people already shelled out a lot of money for their computers so there is that hurdle to get over.

[reifsnyderb]

I'd go with the idea that a 1400XL should have been upgradable with built-in cards.  Basically, take an XL and a 1090 and combine them into one case.

 

[Justin Payne]

@reifsnyderb Yeah, but how would have dealt with the the issue of legacy Atari computers? An upgrade path or make them purchase new hardware knowing how much Atari charged for computers before Commodore forced them to lower the price. For 400/800's, you'd probably have to offer a replacement CPU card but the 1200xl had already been released and so no plug-in option would have been available.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Justin Payne

[reifsnyderb]

6 minutes ago, Justin Payne said:

@reifsnyderb Yeah, but how would have dealt with the the issue of legacy Atari computers? An upgrade path or make them purchase new hardware knowing how much Atari charged for computers before Commodore forced them to lower the price. For 400/800's, you'd probably have to offer a replacement CPU card but the 1200xl had already been released and so no plug-in option would have been available.

Sadly, I don't think there is a good answer for the 1200XL as it didn't have a parallel port.  But, my thought about a 1400XL is what I said about combining an XL with a 1090 in a single case.  It would be really cool to make something like that today but with a few extra pins available...such as /HALT.

 

[doctor_x]

Too bad I didn’t pick up the 1400 I found in richardson tx in the early 90s. Who knows if it was just a leaked case with junk inside, or perhaps an 800/1200 shoehorned into it - I had no idea then what I know now..

[+mytek]

If the Super GTIA chip was designed to be swappable with the legacy GTIA chip, then that would be a fairly inexpensive upgrade. The Sophia did take it up a few notches, while still being backwards compatible. I just don't know if more sprites could be done with the same I/O pins as the stock GTIA.

 

[Synthpopalooza]

Merely adding a second POKEY would have more than upped the sound capabilities.  Not just for stereo purposes, but having 4 16-bit channels, or joining all four channels for a 64-bit mega filter would have beeen more than a match for C-64.

[gobo]

Another what if. Maybe Atari could have just skipped the 1200XL and 800XL and instead sell a 64K 600XL with expansion bus and monitor port alongside a 1450XLD with that huge case used for expansion cards. Kind of like a built in 1090XL. 600XL owners could have had an upgrade path to the external 1090XL. Definitely would have had a more budget premium contrast than the 600XL/800XL. The 800XL would not have needed to exist. Back then I always thought making the 1450XLD case so huge just to house floppy drives was kind of silly. Hindsight is always easy.

[Mclaneinc]

As I got older, the want of a 1450XLD stayed, but the need of one went away. Would it look great on a desk, absolutely 100% yes, but the need for it is very low, what I have as hardware these days is more than enough for me to enjoy myself, the 1450XLD would just be a 'feature, something I do not like. If I own something, I want to see it get used. I fear the 1450 would not get use. And if I look back and think if it would have made a difference for Atari, probably not. A modem, a speech module and built in drive, nothing amazing in any of those.

[+Larry]

I wanted a 1450XLD so bad!  I had been burned twice with RANA drives that would not run reliably in DD, and I believed that the XLD drives were parallel (?), putting an end to sloow motion SIO transfers.  I even wrote to Atari asking if they had a waiting list for the 1450XLD.  And I got a nice letter in response, saying "no waiting list," but they would make sure that the releases would be well-advertised.  But like Paul, I wouldn't feel any need to get one if it were magically released today.  But what we need to do is get Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos interested in Ataris.

[Justin Payne]

On 2/28/2022 at 8:29 PM, Synthpopalooza said:

Merely adding a second POKEY would have more than upped the sound capabilities.  Not just for stereo purposes, but having 4 16-bit channels, or joining all four channels for a 64-bit mega filter would have beeen more than a match for C-64.

You had me at "64-bit mega filter". ?

[Synthpopalooza]

56 minutes ago, Justin Payne said:

You had me at "64-bit mega filter". ?

Here you go ...

 

An example of the above ...

 

[cathrynm]

I kind of agree that 1400XLD seemed more cool at the time than it does in retrospect.  I see what it could have been.  Second Pokey.  Better sound, but also a second SIO.  Would have allowed for R: device on a second serial port that could run at the same time as the disk drive. Way better than a modem.

 

Still, what Atari needed was another jump ahead of C64 with game graphics. A second Pokey would have been enough for sound, but really, the system needed better sprites, maybe something closer to where NES landed, to really take on the C64.

[Meadow Glen]

My family was looking for the entry into the home computer market.   At that second, which was before the C64 existed, the Atari 800 was a lower cost than the Apple II.  My family looked hard at the Apple II, but the price was just too dear.  But the 80 column ability along with a demo of WYSIWYG word processor, made it very desirable.

 

We looked at the Atari 800, but my father passed on it, because it couldn't play 2600 games! Somehow he appreciated the games tie-in, except it didn't have one, not to our 2600 library anyway.

 

Our family's first computer was the Ti-99 but we quickly discovered we had to have a disk drive, we had to have a modem.   The TI-99 had an expansion box - which is why we had to get rid of the TI-99.   It was just too expensive to get nothing.

Gotta remember, we were buying everything...one piece at a time, over months and years.  To buy an expansion box, when it was so expensive and provided nothing - only the possibility of expanding further later, was the big stumbling block for all TI-99 owners, in my recollection.

 

I got an Atari 400.  And eventually an 800XL, and a 1050, 1030 modem, an Amdek Amber monitor etc.  Building up the hardware slowly over time.  I think Atari got the expansion path right.

 

In my view, what, at the time would've made Atari more competitive, was to stay competitive as a games company.  The C64 was better at games, Atari didn't strike back with a better games computer, just with lower prices.    Still I never cared about that, at the time.  I was just glad to have a computer - that's all I wanted was an entry into computing.  It worked for that, I was really happy with it.

 

 

[thorfdbg]

On 3/1/2022 at 3:55 AM, mytek said:

If the Super GTIA chip was designed to be swappable with the legacy GTIA chip, then that would be a fairly inexpensive upgrade. The Sophia did take it up a few notches, while still being backwards compatible. I just don't know if more sprites could be done with the same I/O pins as the stock GTIA.

 

No, that would not be possible. Just by GTIA offering more players does not help because it is ANTIC that feeds the GTIA thorugh DMA with the player data, and there is no free slot for additional  DMA.  One would have to redesign the entire ANTIC/GTIA and RAM timing.

 

Of course, that actually happened then later, except that the chips were called Agnus and Denise, and CBM bought the product because Atari became too greedy. But except that, the design principle of the machine remained.

[thorfdbg]

On 2/28/2022 at 9:44 PM, Lord Thag said:

or a more integrated command line DOS (like the later Spartados) the XL line might have been seen as real competitors to the c64....

You can get this today. Os++ has an integrated command line DOS in ROM, and an updated almost twice-as-fast BASIC. Some software updates would have surely served the machine well.

[ldelsarte]

Like many other Atari 8-bit fans, I too would have loved to own a 1450XLD back in the day. The price seemed really attractive compared to the price of the separate components. But, looking back, I am convinced that it was not "the right machine, for the right audience, at the right time".

 

First and foremost, in order to offer a machine that would have been of interest to SMEs and freelancers, several essential things were missing:

[1] An 80-column text mode, this was absolutely essential for Visicalc, etc. With, logically, additional video outputs, RGB, etc...

[2] A larger capacity floppy disk drive. A real single sided double density, or even better double sided double density. 127 Ko was just not enough for professional projects.

[3] Internal expansion possibilities on the PBI bus - what made the Apple II and IIe so successful, a machine that was obviously overpriced and average in everything. In short, a 1090XL Expansion System was needed INSIDE the 1450XLD.

 

The integrated voice synthesizer was perhaps a good idea, to stand out a little from the competition (and to taunt TI).

The modem too, on paper, seemed to be a good idea but it would probably have been technologically outdated very quickly. A "modem" card, sold with the machine, connected on the PBI bus (i.e. integrated 1090XL E.S.) would have been more upgradeable.

 

If I extend the reasoning, I ask myself: From a graphical point of view, why are the machines released in 1983 barely improved versions of the initial 1978/1979 design with CTIA/GTIA and ANTIC? Where are the extra graphic modes? Where are the additional sprites? Where is the 40 column mode with 8 or 16 colours text like on the C64? And of course, that 80 column monochrome text mode? Surely it should have been possible to remain compatible with the previous 8-bit models while offering new features?

 

Other things come to mind:

[1] 2 POKEYs, to provide more audio channels while remaining fully compatible (as suggested in a post above).

[2] A better, faster BASIC, with a rewritten and optimised FPP. Why not use an integrated OSS BASIC instead Atari BASIC REV. B or C? SMI/OSS is the author of Atari BASIC, they knew the subject, so why not use their know-how? In particular, BASIC commands to directly exploit sprites and DLIs would have been interesting for beginners, to unlock the power of the machine right from BASIC. A BASIC command to copy one part of RAM to another at assembler speed. Some DOS commands integrated in BASIC? DIR, REN, DEL, LOCK, etc... A CLS, quite simply? While remaining 100% compatible, of course.

[3] In anticipation of the low cost 600XL, simple OS modifications such as the ability to make CSAVE "Name of my program", to get a "Loading <your program name here>" message when you type CLOAD? And "Loading BASIC program" or nothing at all when no name is found at the beginning of the program on the tape. It's very simple, and it avoids waiting 15 minutes to realize that you loaded the wrong program.

[4] And finally, the subject that makes me angry, the quality of the manuals delivered with the machine: content-wise, but also the lack of spiral binding. Those of the 600XL & 800XL are particularly sloppy in the international version.

 

Finally, although I have mixed feelings about the potential theoretical success of the 1450XLD back in the day, I am still a fan and I would still love to own one.

 

In the meantime, does anyone know if a 1450XLD can be seen anywhere in a museum in mainland Europe or the UK?