Reasons to get (or to not get) an Atari 8-bit /XL/XE?

[Tillek]

1 hour ago, Mr Robot said:

Because an Atarimax cart is flash memory, needs special hardware and software to flash it and has a fixed size (1MB). The other carts are all multicarts that use SD for storage so will hold everything at once, need no special hardware or software other than a pc that can see fat32 and don't need to convert anything to make it compatible before you can use it. 

 

@Tillek no opinions about which is the best, just my justification for rejecting Atarimax, which is what I was asked for. 

 

 

All good...

 

Except that AtariMax actually has MyIDE ][ as well, so assuming the only AtariMax option is MaxFlash is... well...  yaknow.

[Mr Robot]

1 hour ago, Tillek said:

All good...

 

Except that AtariMax actually has MyIDE ][ as well, so assuming the only AtariMax option is MaxFlash is... well...  yaknow.

Given post #1 (Does it have as many good games as the C64) I'm going to guess the OP isn't into running OSS languages, SDX and an internal HDD so he wasn't thinking my-ide when he said AtariMax Cart. 

 

Assuming all options are suitable for all use cases is... well... yaknow.

 

 

 

[Tillek]

8 hours ago, Mr Robot said:

Given post #1 (Does it have as many good games as the C64) I'm going to guess the OP isn't into running OSS languages, SDX and an internal HDD so he wasn't thinking my-ide when he said AtariMax Cart. 

 

Assuming all options are suitable for all use cases is... well... yaknow.

 

 

 

Ah... so you didn't actually catch any of this videos where he demos loading game images?

 

And actually, what you're talking about would require the user to flash a different version of the bios anyway if I recall (having done it myself).

 

But at least you tried to figure out what the user was going to do with it and responded with that in mind, so that's more in line with what I was getting at.

[zzip]

16 hours ago, Koopa64 said:

Well, do you like your Atari XL/XE or such more than the Apple //e or C64?

For gaming, the Ataris beat the Apple IIe for sure.  They are good rivals to the C64.   They have strengths and weaknesses vs the C64.

[youxia]

24 minutes ago, zzip said:

For gaming, the Ataris beat the Apple IIe for sure

If you mean "for arcade gaming" then maybe yes.

[zzip]

9 minutes ago, youxia said:

If you mean "for arcade gaming" then maybe yes.

There were a number of games that Apple had that I used to badly want on my Atari BITD,  things like Wizardry and other RPG type games.   But on the other hand I don't think these games really hold up in 2022 either.    Mostly you'd play them if you have nostalgia for them.

 

I just don't find Apple II to be a comfortable system to game on, as someone who didn't grow up with one.   The sound is obnoxious, the graphics usually aren't good--  but it's like every other 8-bit.   If the game was designed on an Apple II it will look best on Apple II.   If it was ported from another system it will usually look and play terrible compared to other systems

[youxia]

28 minutes ago, zzip said:

There were a number of games that Apple had that I used to badly want on my Atari BITD,  things like Wizardry and other RPG type games.   But on the other hand I don't think these games really hold up in 2022 either.    Mostly you'd play them if you have nostalgia for them.

They laid the foundations for many modern genres. If they hold up well in 2022 and are played because of nostalgia only is a very subjective thing, and it similarly could be said about most of the arcade-style classics mentioned ITT thread already. In any case, you can't really say that A8 beats AII "for sure" in the gaming department because it really is not that clear cut. If I had to choose only one, be it now or then, it'd be AII precisely because I prefer the style of games it had more on offer (RPG, adventure, strategy, etc).

[zzip]

6 minutes ago, youxia said:

They laid the foundations for many modern genres. If they hold up well in 2022 and are played because of nostalgia only is a very subjective thing, and it similarly could be said about most of the arcade-style classics mentioned ITT thread already.

There's one major difference between arcade-style games and RPGs.    You can experience most of what an arcade type game offers in 5-10 minutes,  while an RPG requires hours of investment.   There are now tons of classic RPGs on many platforms,  and I just don't have the time to go back and play through them as much as I loved the genre.   I can't even muster the will to go back and play through the RPG games I did own and loved like Ultima,  let alone ones I never owned.   So while I can appreciate what games like Wizardry and Bard's Tale did for the genre,  I don't feel I owe them a playthrough now.

 

Arcade games by contrast are easy to pick up and play.  So it's easy to check those out on a variety of systems.

 

And yes of course this is all subjective, the person I responded to was asking for opnions!!  

[Leonard Smith]

Speaking for myself, I have zero history with Atari 8 or 16 bit computers, and I recently acquired a 65XE and XEGS as a way to explore a library of software that has been a mystery to me for many years.

 

I like how the earlier 8 bit games seem like hyper powered 2600 games (ie: developers had more resources so the mechanics and graphics are better, while still preserving the spirit and fun factor of the 2600 style).

 

Is it worth getting?  Depends on your budget I guess.  I plan to just selectively acquire a game or two here and there.  
I really don't care for flash carts and all these crazy expansions...that's too hardcore for where my tastes lie.

 

[Keatah]

34 minutes ago, Leonard Smith said:

I really don't care for flash carts and all these crazy expansions...that's too hardcore for where my tastes lie.

Oh I wholeheartedly concur, absolutely. All these over-the-top expansions and mods just transform the personality of the machine into something it isn't, or, could never be back in the day. And the software that makes use of these add-ons total about 0.03% or less of the system's entire catalog.

 

There are two exceptions here.

1- SD card storage solutions. For convenience and getting stuff to/from the PC.

2- Adapters to allow for modern HDMI displays. This is critical for doing anything with the system.

 

Furthermore, they should be totally external with no modifications to the machine's internals. Just like a consumer product would be when sold back in the day.

[youxia]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

And yes of course this is all subjective, the person I responded to was asking for opnions!!  

It's not all subjective. Our individual preferences, especially in 2022 might be, but the strengths of a given platform's gaming library aren't. Hence my objection to your rather simplistic "For gaming, the Ataris beat the Apple IIe for sure".

[zzip]

1 hour ago, youxia said:

It's not all subjective. Our individual preferences, especially in 2022 might be, but the strengths of a given platform's gaming library aren't. Hence my objection to your rather simplistic "For gaming, the Ataris beat the Apple IIe for sure".

We're really looking at two different things,  you are looking at the gaming library and I'm looking at gaming capabilities.    In many ways the Apple II game library is stronger than Atari, I'll will definately grant that!  But I'll maintain the Atari has better gaming capabilities (audio/visual, plus little touches like Start/Option/Select buttons, Cart port, etc)

[gilsaluki]

I truly believe a wife invented emulation.  "When you gonna rid of all that 'toy computer' junk from our spare bedroom?".  Yep. Our jewels are being clipped, slowly, but surely.  DBM, A. 

[+Gemintronic]

No one can really answer this for you.  Try out emulation and see if you'll actually use the games and software.

 

I've bought too many systems based on "I wish I had that as a kid" and recommendations only to find my tastes are elsewhere.

[Leonard Smith]

3 hours ago, Keatah said:

Oh I wholeheartedly concur, absolutely. All these over-the-top expansions and mods just transform the personality of the machine into something it isn't, or, could never be back in the day. And the software that makes use of these add-ons total about 0.03% or less of the system's entire catalog.

 

There are two exceptions here.

1- SD card storage solutions. For convenience and getting stuff to/from the PC.

2- Adapters to allow for modern HDMI displays. This is critical for doing anything with the system.

 

Furthermore, they should be totally external with no modifications to the machine's internals. Just like a consumer product would be when sold back in the day.

I'm a purist.
I want to experience the machine as close to the original as possible.  Once you start tacking on new features, operating systems and massive storage, then the experience becomes more akin to using Mame or something.  But that view may also have to do with the fact that I'm new to the platform and I'd like to have the same look, feel and experience as it was back in the 80's.    

I know folks that grew up with these machines will think differently after having spent years dealing with flakey disks and slow media.

[gilsaluki]

3 hours ago, Leonard Smith said:

I'm a purist.
I want to experience the machine as close to the original as possible.  Once you start tacking on new features, operating systems and massive storage, then the experience becomes more akin to using Mame or something.  But that view may also have to do with the fact that I'm new to the platform and I'd like to have the same look, feel and experience as it was back in the 80's.    

I know folks that grew up with these machines will think differently after having spent years dealing with flakey disks and slow media.

Nope.  I agree with you and I have been using Atari Eights since 1983 or 84.  I still primarily use disk, tapes, and carts.  Use the new crap just to get software I did not, or cannot now get.  Most of my software was purchased new, albeit after most of it became heavily discounted.  Very few titles I regret buying. 

[Keatah]

11 hours ago, Leonard Smith said:

I'm a purist.
I want to experience the machine as close to the original as possible.  Once you start tacking on new features, operating systems and massive storage, then the experience becomes more akin to using Mame or something.  But that view may also have to do with the fact that I'm new to the platform and I'd like to have the same look, feel and experience as it was back in the 80's.    

I know folks that grew up with these machines will think differently after having spent years dealing with flakey disks and slow media.

I do a mix of both.

 

I had an Apple II in the late 1970's. Today I enjoy the speed and convenience of modern SD & Flash storage. At the very same time I like the noise of the disk drive - it's rather reassuring. Letting me know everything is alright. And gonna be alright.

 

It's also a troubleshooting tool. Back then we would be so attuned to a particular games' sound that we'd know if something was going to work or not. Or if the disk was going bad or the head needed cleaning. Or if the WaRez were working right, and how copies were coming along. Sound is always a great indicator of how well something mechanical is doing.

[Koopa64]

I think I will emulate and explore the A8 library that way, then decide if I want to sink some money into an actual A8 computer.

[Keatah]

A word of warning about emulation and emulators..

 

You may find it so convenient and reliable that you decide not to get real hardware. And if you do get real hardware you may not use it as often as u thought u would.

 

Make no mistake. I love my Apple II material dearly but use emulation almost 90 percent of the time. Atari would be no different if I had one.

 

I would suggest using Altirra since it covers pretty much the entire 8-bit lineup with a mess of addons to top it off. You can get reliable Rapidus simulation. You get VBXE. A variety of drives and memory configurations. Great color tweaking through the GUI. Stereo Pokey. And much much more. It's a feature-complete virtual Atari worthy of "official" status. And support from the developer and user-base here on AA is top brass.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Keatah

[Meadow Glen]

I see that everyone's tastes are different. 

 

I know from surveys that most people here use real Ataris - I'm the same.  I use an emulator for programming, because I can compile/test very quickly that way.

 

But, I want a real atari, and it has to do everything I wanted my real atari to do bitd, but usually didn't actually do bitd.  My display back then was a horrible mess of waviness, and I literally wanted to throw it in the ocean.  bitd, I wanted to use my Atari for word processing, but used my Dad's trs-80 because the display worked...and mine was crap.

 

My Atari was primarily used for programming and BBSing.  Not for word processing as I strongly wished it had been.

 

As for games, i couldn't afford them, I had only 3 games, if I recall. However, like most boys, i did play a lot of games...just not on a computer.

Still I add that point, because now that I finally got my display issues sorted, I have bought a few games to play.  carts off e-bay,  Galaxian, qix, centipede...I find them to be quite quality stuff.  I liek the cartridge experience, so I'm not into loading up 3,000 games and trying to manage that. I will never even get through the 3 games I just mentioned, to be frank.

 

Anyway, my 2 cents, what works for me: real Atari, that can play any cartridge, have a perfect display, 80-column mode, a hard drive, an accelerator, a floppy drive supporting 512k sectors, both joystick ports must be available,  and so forth.  Lots of choices and expansions have trade-offs so it isn't quite so simple to gather an ultiamte system together, imho.   However, now I have such. beast - well, one in my house that lacks the accelerator and soon - one that has it all  (on its way).

 

Unlike when I bought a colecovision or Coco3, decisions I later reversed - these high end Atari's, I treasure.  The difference is, those other systems just don't have the same place in my heart.   

 

 

 

 

[zzip]

On 4/17/2022 at 1:46 AM, Keatah said:

You may find it so convenient and reliable that you decide not to get real hardware. And if you do get real hardware you may not use it as often as u thought u would.

Yeah this.   I'd pull out my old hardware and not only does it get harder and harder to hook it up to modern displays because fewer and fewer have Composite/SCART/Component inputs anymore,  but the hardware ages..  cables become brittle, stuff needs recaps,  floppy disks don't work half the time anymore, etc.

 

So emulation suites me fine,   of course it depends on the quality of emulation but thankfully Atari 8-bit has at least two excellent emulators in Atari800 and Altirra

 

I guess the final annoyance I have with emulators is keyboard.   There are some applications where having a real keyboard helps, especially when special characters are printed on the keys.   On a PC keyboard you are fumbling around trying to find the right key combo to produce the character you want, or wondering what the hell key "Start/Option/Help/Run Stop/Break", etc map to.   Some emulators take keyboard mapping to extreme and expect to do things like press "Shift-2" for quotes like it used to be rather than the key modern keyboards map it to.

 

Not sure what the solution to that is though, other than a keyboard that could change the marking on each key dynamically, but such a keyboard would be super expensive I'm sure.

[Keatah]

I seem to recall a few keyboards with OLED screens in the caps. Not sure the lifespan as OLED is subject to burn-in and dimming same as a CRT.

 

I just use a cheatsheetchart if I'm needing special characters or working with weird mappings. For each of the major emulators I made an overlay/chart, similar to those 80's and 90's office applications.

 

Overall I prefer a direct remapping to modern keyboards, because that's what I'm using the other half of the time.  Typing "*" should give me "*". There is no nostalgia in positioning of keys - the using of a common PC key to "START" or the "C=" symbol just because it's located in a certain spot. That's just retarded. So no! Give me the equivalent F1-12 replacement. That's what they're there for.

[WizWor]

If you have to ask the question, the answer is no.  There are much better options available today.  The only reason to own a 'vintage' console is nostalgia.  Get yourself an Xbox or a PS4.

[_The Doctor__]

Having the real thing gives you the experience 100 percent, There are no emu issues, no config this that etc etc etc keyboard blah blah and on and on... emulation is a great tool IMHO but still isn't the same as using the real deal. EOL.

[Phlod]

On 4/12/2022 at 3:56 PM, Leonard Smith said:

I'd like to have the same look, feel and experience as it was back in the 80's.

On one hand, I see where you're coming from when you say you're a purist, and I don't really want to discourage your approach.  But to put forth an alternate point of view, my family's first computer was an Atari 400 in (IIRC) 1980.  The first thing my dad did was to replace the membrane keyboard with something with actual buttons.  And the second was to upgrade the RAM to 48K.  (Actually it might have been in the opposite order, I just know that I barely have memories of using the membrane keyboard, and to me it always had 48K.)

 

The first 800XL of my very own had been upgraded with a 256K Rambo expansion.  As the years went along eventually our family 130XE had 320K, an MIO, and a 20MB HDD.  I played fewer games and called more BBSes, but I digress.

 

Now admittedly, my dad was an electronics technician, hence handy with solder and an oscilloscope, and I realize that that doesn't describe everyone's experience.  However, to me modding and upgrading is both period-accurate, and a real strength of the Atari 8-bit line even today.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Phlod
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