It’s a miracle the nes sold like hot cakes

[Austin]

1 hour ago, MrBeefy said:

The black box games are not the ones IMO that made the NES. Those were like the games in between the Atari arcades games and the new ones that evolved into what is more modern.

 

If NES stuck with similar type black box games I don't think it would have been as popular. The 7800 was basically a rehashed 2600 with better graphic capability.

Agreed. If the NES hardware capped out with black box style games, there's no way it would have ever become the success it was.

 

What people don't give the system enough credit for (or simply just don't realize or understand) is the expandability through its cartridge slot. The evolution of the mappers included in carts that pushed the capabilities of the system past what it could do out of the box were absolutely critical, and that was the backbone of its best games from '86/'87 and on. The tech would evolve over the years, eventually resulting in games like Kirby's Adventure, something that is, physically, a very different beast under the hood when sat next to something like Balloon Fight.

[+GoldLeader]

13 hours ago, Austin said:

Agreed. If the NES hardware capped out with black box style games, there's no way it would have ever become the success it was.

 

 

 

On 6/25/2022 at 6:02 PM, CapitanClassic said:

...

 

 

 

For comparison,

 

Here's a couple of pics from one of my past eBay auctions:

 

 

 

So just think,  if this is what I SOLD,

 

Imagine what I KEPT! 

 

 

 

[johannesmutlu]

On 7/2/2022 at 7:20 AM, GoldLeader said:

 

 

 

For comparison,

 

Here's a couple of pics from one of my past eBay auctions:

 

 

 

So just think,  if this is what I SOLD,

 

Imagine what I KEPT! 

 

 

 

WoooW holy shit that’s incredible.

[johannesmutlu]

On 7/1/2022 at 4:08 PM, MrBeefy said:

I find it funny that someone would think it a miracle and that since at least the Gamecube people have been predicting the end of Nintendo.

 

Yet here we are with the Switch.

 

The black box games are not the ones IMO that made the NES. Those were like the games in between the Atari arcades games and the new ones that evolved into what is more modern.

 

If NES stuck with similar type black box games I don't think it would have been as popular. The 7800 was basically a rehashed 2600 with better graphic capability.

Well that’s the funny fact about nintendo,they did pit things in the reverse way ,unlike atari who did used silver/gray boxes but used black cartrides along with those 9 pin controller port connectors,but nintendo used black boxes and gray cartrides wich also had to be loaded from the front trough a ZIF system(intelevision & vectrex loaded cartride games side ways) and lastly nintendo used their own priatery controller connect plugs,just to make sure they would be distinguingible from it’s competitors,otherwise it would,ve caused lot’s of confusion among consumers.

[Lynxpro]

On 6/29/2022 at 6:34 PM, Keatah said:

One of the ways I learned of the 7800 (not necessarily the 1st however) was through the Atari single-sheet poster catalogs. I was interested in it naturally. But when I compared the numbers, 2600 - 5200 - 7800, I was expecting something better than all that had come before. Not some nebulous specification wafting around. Especially for 1987! I expected a faster processor, better than TIA-sound, more capable graphics than the computers, more memory, bigger cartridges. Instead I saw design full of cost-cutting and just-get-by-enough to be called new.

 

But NES was different and continued to push boundaries. I liked that. I respected that. Atari's only remaining reputation was their coin-op division.

 

 

 

The former Atari Inc's Coin-Op Division [internally known as "Atari Coin" and arguably the "Real Atari" since it was essentially the original company] wasn't part of Tramiel's Atari Corp. Warner changed its name first to Atari Games Inc. [later the Atari Games Corp.] and turned 90% of it over to Namco. They kept the home rights to all of their arcade titles from 1984 on. Which is why those titles were unavailable for most of the shelf life of the Atari 7800 and XE Game System. They of course immediately wanted back into the home game market but couldn't use the "Atari" brand there so they created "Tengen" for that purpose. More fans need to understand that. This was also another contributing factor to the lack of major success of Atari Corp's consoles. Kids wanting to play "Atari's" arcade hits like Gauntlet I & II, Paperboy, 720 Degrees, Roadblasters, etc expected to be able to play them on an "Atari" console and not made available on the NES by a mysterious company named "Tengen". 

[Lynxpro]

On 6/30/2022 at 2:29 PM, johannesmutlu said:

WoooW i didn’t know about atari’s qwak arcade game thanks for mentioning that,but too bad it was not that successful and there weren’t even ports of it(wich that game definitely does deserve) but it did let to nintendo’s inspiration to create duck hunt for the famicom a whopping 10 years later wich did became a huge success,

no matter how unfair it sounds but consider nintendo just had the luck on it’s side,

 

1,donkeykong inspirated from space panic,it became a success,

2,supermariobros inspirated from pac land,but it became a success,

3,duck hunt as mentioned wich was inspirated from qwak but became a success,

4,legenda of zelda was inspirated from hydlide but became a success,

5,the nes was inspirated from the atari 2600 and probably also the atari 5200 and colecovision etc,,but it juat outnumbered those systems in sales,

6,the gameboy was inspired from both the microvision and the game pocket computer,but again it just outnumbered those systems in sales,

Etc,,, etc,,,

but who knows what kind more of things we will know in the future from nintendo to be NOT original and thus NOT their idea at all.

 

 

 

Nintendo copied lots of Atari stuff.  Not just Duck Hunt swiping from Qwak but also Excite Bike swiping from Stunt Cycle.

 

Another problem was probably Tramiel's Atari Corp not having ex-Atari Coin staff over there to tell them about Nintendo's IP theft. The staff most likely would've been over at Atari Games and any unofficial cooperation between staff probably ceased after they stopped sharing the same building and Atari Games went out to Milpitas. Plus, the two companies ended up going to court to determine which company owned which IPs since they couldn't figure it out on their own and Warner's input didn't help matters. They didn't start cooperating until both companies were suing Nintendo and Steve Ross was trying to have them work together behind the scenes [Warner retained at 25% stake in Tramiel's Atari Corp and 10% in Namco-controlled Atari Games Corp until buying it fully back a couple of years later].

[Lynxpro]

On 7/1/2022 at 9:09 AM, Austin said:

Agreed. If the NES hardware capped out with black box style games, there's no way it would have ever become the success it was.

 

What people don't give the system enough credit for (or simply just don't realize or understand) is the expandability through its cartridge slot. The evolution of the mappers included in carts that pushed the capabilities of the system past what it could do out of the box were absolutely critical, and that was the backbone of its best games from '86/'87 and on. The tech would evolve over the years, eventually resulting in games like Kirby's Adventure, something that is, physically, a very different beast under the hood when sat next to something like Balloon Fight.

 

Being that you're posting this in an Atari 7800 thread, you do realize the 7800's cartridge slot is just as versatile. It supports large RAM sizes, large ROM sizes, audio chips, video chips, and even CPUs. Had Atari Inc remained intact instead of splitting apart and being sold off by Warner and also retained the Amiga Lorraine chipset, they probably would've brought out an expansion module for the cartridge slot that expanded the console to play the 16-Bit "Mickey" Console games circa 1986. The plan was to release the 7800 at Christmas 1984 and then the Amiga Lorraine powered "Mickey" console at the higher end of the market at Christmas 1985. And that would be a 7.16MHz Motorola 68000 powered console with 128K RAM and the Amiga Lorraine's custom chipset [PAULA, AGNUS, etc] sitting atop the 7800.

 

But even without the possibility of the Amiga Lorraine chipset, or the Silver & Gold chipset being used, the 7800 cartridges could've rivaled anything the NES did. However, Tramiel's successor Atari Corp wasn't sold on the idea of selling game cartridges for $50+ until nearly the end of the console's life. NES cartridges were anything but cheap when they were first released.

[Austin]

3 hours ago, Lynxpro said:

Being that you're posting this in an Atari 7800 thread, you do realize the 7800's cartridge slot is just as versatile.

I am well aware. As we all know, aside from a couple of Pokey carts, it was barely utilized in that manner when it was on the market, which is a damn shame.

[Trebor]

An absolute shame, when considering something like the completed design and working prototypes of the cost effective Minnie sound chip playing through the halls of GCC.  As mentioned over on the 7800.8bitdev.org page...

 

Features:

-3 voices
-16-bit frequency resolution
-28kHz sample rate with dynamic range of 10 bits
-2 arbitrary 64-byte waveforms stored in on-chip ROM, which could differ per-game
-3 standard waveforms: triangle, square, sawtooth

 

The Minnie and TIA audio was summed together, which added another 2 voices to the system, suitable for sound effects and percussion effects.

 

As stated in the Minnie Subsystem Top-Level Specification document created Dec 1983 and updated Feb 1984, the cost target would have added less than $2 per cart.

 

Hopefully, we will have a taste of it via HOKEY.

[Lostdragon]

On 6/28/2022 at 6:09 AM, Lynxpro said:

 

 

 

The Atari XEGS Light Gun [aka the "XG-1" separately] was not as accurate as the NES Zapper or the Sega Phaser. Bug Hunt was terrible. It's too bad nobody at Atari Corp was apparently aware of the old Atari coin-op game Qwak! - from, what, 1976? - which Nintendo's Duck Hunt is a rip-off of, otherwise, they could've made a version of it for the XEGS and the 7800.  Duck Hunt was responsible for selling quite a lot of NES consoles.

That's a very good point. 

 

Qwak! Was a 1974 arcade title and Atari could possibly  of done something of a deluxe version for the XEGS and 7800, updating the graphics etc, instead they went with the medocore Bug Hunt ?

[youxia]

The thing is, the little "if onlys" don't really matter considering the bigger picture. So neither some hypothetical Lorraine based machine, better cart utilization nor an excellent zapper game would have helped much against NES, that's because that console had captured the-then zeitgeist and was a long needed breath of fresh air. The technical specs of some other machines don't really matter that much, seeing as NES brought to the table not only some new killer franchises but also a whole new style and perception of gaming. And that's what people clearly have wanted.

 

In some respects it is similar to what Sony has done with the PSX in the Nineties.

[Classic Pac]

The 7800 will always hold a special place in my heart. The the NES not only had better graphics but sound as well. The NES sold better because it had more good games. 

[Lynxpro]

On 7/15/2022 at 2:45 AM, Trebor said:

An absolute shame, when considering something like the completed design and working prototypes of the cost effective Minnie sound chip playing through the halls of GCC.  As mentioned over on the 7800.8bitdev.org page...

 

Features:

-3 voices
-16-bit frequency resolution
-28kHz sample rate with dynamic range of 10 bits
-2 arbitrary 64-byte waveforms stored in on-chip ROM, which could differ per-game
-3 standard waveforms: triangle, square, sawtooth

 

The Minnie and TIA audio was summed together, which added another 2 voices to the system, suitable for sound effects and percussion effects.

 

As stated in the Minnie Subsystem Top-Level Specification document created Dec 1983 and updated Feb 1984, the cost target would have added less than $2 per cart.

 

Hopefully, we will have a taste of it via HOKEY.

 

I don't doubt the $2 cost per chip. After all, Atari Inc in late 1983 had estimated that the AMY would only cost $4 per chip and it was far more powerful and capable.

 

It's a shame neither were completed and released...  errr, that in the case of the AMY, it took until circa 1986 to finish by Sight + Sound who allegedly then absconded with it, landed in court over it, and then a warehouse fire mysteriously destroyed all of the completed work...

[Pete5125]

On 6/29/2022 at 7:29 PM, Lynxpro said:

 

I don't understand how someone back then hadn't heard of the Atari 7800. Toys R Us carried it in its stores. So did Kay Bee. Sears had it in their catalogs. Electronic Game Player/Electronic Gaming Monthly, GamePro, Video Games & Computer Entertainment, and other magazines covered its limited - compared to the NES - releases [hell, EGM was actually positive at the time to it]. Even their weak television commercials were advertised during afternoon syndicated cartoons in most television markets at the time...especially from 1987-1988.

True but walmart, Richway,  Kmart and regular Sears and everybody else carried NES, then to a lesser extent sega master system.

 

Sears carried Atari only in catalogs and on occasion Sears surplus.

 

HILLS had them, but they were for the low end of retail, step above big lots.

 

The place that did carry Atari had them in another section, where as Nintendo was I. A huge lighted glass case, with a display unit playing super Mario bros.

 

Nintendo mkt. Team was night and day better than Atari.

 

The thing that killed and saved 7800 was the backwards compatibility with 2600, the other problem was most releases were either old 2600 games or released on both systems, so the retailer carried the 2600 version as more kids had 2600.

If it was a newer asteroids or Ms pacman nobody was buying their kid a 2nd copy for better grafix...only maybe if they broke /lost  the old one.

 

Then Ataris crazy decision to release xegs a year after 7800 came out, xegs was at even fewer retailers yet had a bigger advertising campaign.

 

Atari had commercials for 2600, 7800 and xegs all at the same time very confusing for consumers....also all looked dated vs NES.

 

When it comes down to it controller was better, packin games were better, people had moved on from 2600 and were giving away or selling at flea mkt games for a buck.

 

7800 came out to late, didn't get competitive software till 89-90, had half the spots to purchase in retail. And the newer software was just a generic version of a popular nes game, we don't have operation wolf but got alien brigade no arch rivals but got basketball.

 

 

[johannesmutlu]

Whooaah just when i tout i was done with this subject but nope because i found these pictures showing how atari really tried sooo hard to bash on nintendo,by not only showing nintendo’s ip on the box of their atari 2600 jr box but also on their atari xe box as well as also coming with a cost reduced waay more sleecker atari 2600 jr system (duh) as well  the atari xe hybrid computer system(duh),aside from the 7800 system,and eventrough i tout i found an atari 7800 poster with 1 nintendo ip on it but it turned out to be f@cking fake aaarrrggg,but atari just clearly tried to surround and seal nintendo’s fate from all sides,but nintendo just did kept expanding their selfes against atari like a tumor wich would eventually even seal atari’s own fate,it just blows my mind how atari was first the king of videogames and to even having nintendo & sega on their side but then getting striked by cancer from it’s once sega & nintendo did go alone among other competitors later on,ouch???

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by johannesmutlu

[John Stamos Mullet]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:43 AM, youxia said:

The thing is, the little "if onlys" don't really matter considering the bigger picture. So neither some hypothetical Lorraine based machine, better cart utilization nor an excellent zapper game would have helped much against NES, that's because that console had captured the-then zeitgeist and was a long needed breath of fresh air. The technical specs of some other machines don't really matter that much, seeing as NES brought to the table not only some new killer franchises but also a whole new style and perception of gaming. And that's what people clearly have wanted.

 

In some respects it is similar to what Sony has done with the PSX in the Nineties.

Is it really what people wanted, or was it what the down your throat marketing convinced them was what they wanted. 
 

i liken the rise of the NES to the rise of Marvel Studios. Yes - they make a good product, initially. Yes, they dominate the market. But did people really want 4 Ant-Man films? Or do people just keep consuming it because it’s like team sports,  and most people are just too insecure to do anything but say “ok, sounds good” and keep consuming stuff they don’t really want because. It’s popular, and they don’t want to get made fun of for not doing the popular thing? 

Edited July 24, 2022 by John Stamos Mullet

[bikeguychicago]

On 4/23/2022 at 10:12 AM, johannesmutlu said:

9,also atati’s 7800 super system did had a lockout chip to preven unautherized crappy games to be on their system as well,

 

The lockout chip didn't prevent authorized crappy games from being on the system ?

[DavidD]

On 6/28/2022 at 11:57 AM, Leonard Smith said:

games like Duck Hunt, Super Mario Bros and Excitebike were LACKING in comparison to the arcade versions.  Again, hollow experiences that made you wonder about the true power of the NES when it couldn't even give you the same experience that you got at the local arcade.

I'm confused by this.

 

How are the NES versions of Duck Hunt, Super Mario Bros., and Excitebike lacking in comparison to the mildly-altered/updated arcade ports of those same games?

 

I mean, the home/original version of Super Mario Bros. is a much better, more balanced game than Vs. Super Mario Bros.  Duck Hunt isn't remarkably different... and did Vs. Excitebike even get a US release that anyone noticed?

 

I don't quite get the complaints about these three titles being "worse"/lacking on the NES versus the arcade.

[+x=usr(1536)]

15 minutes ago, DavidD said:

and did Vs. Excitebike even get a US release that anyone noticed

Strangely enough, there were a number of L.A.-area locations that had them (restaurants, bowling alleys, etc.), but I don't recall ever seeing the Vs. version in an arcade in that neck of the woods.  My guess is that it was being sold as a conversion kit for DK / DK Jr. machines and distributors were targetting locations which only had a couple of machines on site.

[Leonard Smith]

31 minutes ago, DavidD said:

I'm confused by this.

 

How are the NES versions of Duck Hunt, Super Mario Bros., and Excitebike lacking in comparison to the mildly-altered/updated arcade ports of those same games?

 

I mean, the home/original version of Super Mario Bros. is a much better, more balanced game than Vs. Super Mario Bros.  Duck Hunt isn't remarkably different... and did Vs. Excitebike even get a US release that anyone noticed?

 

I don't quite get the complaints about these three titles being "worse"/lacking on the NES versus the arcade.

There were numerous elements missing in Duck Hunt, such as the dog randomly jumping out in the middle of gameplay, different duck patterns and more.  The NES version feels unfinished and dull in comparison.

 

Excitebike in the arcade was absolutely better than the NES port.  Just look at the victory podium screen and you'll see the animations and character that are completely missing on the home port.

 

Yes. I played these in the arcade when they were new and they absolutely made me wonder why the home versions couldn't or wouldn't incorporate these elements.  You can defend Nintendo all you want, but as a NES owner I was disappointed as I wanted the same game as what was playing in the arcade. 
 

Just like they screwed up all the other arcade ports. Rygar became some bizarre RPG wannabe with overhead screens and quest elements.  Double Dragon mutated into a side scrolling adventure game complete with platform jumping and puzzles.  Strider eschewed the great run and arcade nature of the arcade and turned into a silly adventure game.  
To kids who wanted the arcade experience, these abominations were annoying and unwanted. 

 

[roots.genoa]

2 hours ago, Leonard Smith said:

Just like they screwed up all the other arcade ports. Rygar became some bizarre RPG wannabe with overhead screens and quest elements.  Double Dragon mutated into a side scrolling adventure game complete with platform jumping and puzzles.  Strider eschewed the great run and arcade nature of the arcade and turned into a silly adventure game.  
To kids who wanted the arcade experience, these abominations were annoying and unwanted.

I think they were just trying to adapt arcade games to a hardware that is at the same time weaker but allows to play longer. Most Capcom ports added slight (or big in the case of Strider) adventure and/or RPG elements. Some people love NES' Rygar, so calling it an 'abomination' is quite harsh imho. If you wanted an arcade experience, you had to pick a SEGA system I guess. ?‍♂️

[Trebor]

7 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

Some people love NES' Rygar, so calling it an 'abomination' is quite harsh imho.

*Ahem*   I have posted not just one, but two videos for it.

9 hours ago, Leonard Smith said:

Rygar became some bizarre RPG wannabe with overhead screens and quest elements.

NES Rygar is my favorite 8-bit console game of all time.  I kid and exaggerate not, when I state I have played the game to completion, at least once a year, every year, since '87; twice so far, this year.  Sure, there are overhead sections, but that is to allow the player access to the various side scrolling areas that are present, similar to the Arcade (As seen in the aforementioned linked videos).  Under the NES, the sections are nonlinear and include section bosses.  Also, several side scrolling areas under the NES allow Rygar to travel vertically as well.

 

I never experienced or saw Rygar in the arcades, BITD.   My first experience with the Arcade original was the standalone DOS emulator REM!, circa 1997.  I was expecting the NES Rygar game with better graphics and sound.  I was so excited when the game started.   At first, my presumption appeared to be the case, but shortly thereafter, I saw the same, scroll to the right, linear gameplay prevailing.  I was so disappointed.   I kept thinking it was going to change, dropping virtual quarters, trying to convince myself eventually the linear gameplay design would not last the entire game... I was wrong.

 

I may not like what was done with the gameplay of other games, such as Gyruss, the first TMNT game, and Double Dragon was a huge let-down for me and my cousins, as we were psyched for the two player simultaneous Arcade action at home; however, Rygar is in a whole other class for me.   The NES port, IMHO, improved the Arcade gameplay experience.

[Leonard Smith]

I understand all that.

 

But as a kid, me and my circle of friends wanted arcade ports that matched the arcade exactly.  That was the holy grail.  It became disappointing when just about every game differed from the arcade source material...some in minor ways such as the Nintendo Vs stuff. and Capcom's early glitchy messes like Commando and Section Z. 

Others varied in drastic ways like the aforementioned Double Dragon and Rygar conversions.  And then things like Ninja Gaiden went from being a gritty beat em up to some side-scrolling hack and slash with the cliche "sons loses father to evil villain" storyline.

 

That was a big thing back then, and that's why the Neo Geo was revolutionary because it played the same game (though even they took some liberties in the home versions by limiting continues, etc)

 

Yeah, some of the interpretations were cool and I do understand that decisions were made due to hardware limitations, but overall it was disappointing as we felt a sense of letdown whenever an arcade game port was announced for the NES.  

[+save2600]

Nice vids @Trebor, and good to see some NES Rygar love! Played the hell out of it BITD and is easily still among my favs in the library. Today, wish there was a 7800 version... with non-flickery sprites and Pokey sound. ?

[MrMaddog]

Nintendo's Vs. System games came after the Famicom/NES versions and were made to be more harder than the home versions to make more money for the arcade owner.  That and they combined the A & B Modes into seperate stages (ie. Duck Hunt & Hogan's Alley).

 

Home versions were menant to be played as long as they can be, with the amount of money spent on the cart.

 

I played the Vs. games before getting the NES and while the graphics weren't "better" they still had the same type of gameplay though a bit easier.

 

If you wanted 1:1 conversions than the time-based Playstation 10's would be better.

 

As for Rygar, I actually enjoyed playing the arcade (and Lynx) version in spite of the constant linear nature.  I appriciate the NES's Metrovania nature but I didn't like having to grind my levels up just to beat the first boss.