Homebrews and new releases (Yeah, I know, I know...)

[Paolo]

Foreword:

This is a rant, and a provocation, too.

I am perfectly aware that people here does program in the spare time of their true lives.

I don't mean to stimulate any flame war (and please lock this thread if any happens; however I'm sure nothing will happen, not any more ).

 

To the topic, now.

By reading here and somewhere else, I noticed that it's nearly impossible to track down Jag future releases, not because of 'sliding releases', but because of chaotic informations.

Just yesterday I read about a game that was supposed to be stopped, then it looks it's going to be completed along with a pair of new things. At website X you read something, at website Y you read the exact opposite, at site Z you read nothing. Confusing, isn't it?

 

WHY?

 

Is it still going this 'underground war'?

 

I don't think this is going to be good to the Jag, not everybody can read ten forums at a time, ON A DAILY BASIS!

How do we think an occasional gamer can understand all this confusion?

 

If you try to get news about PS2 releases, EVERY source will give you the exact same infos, although the whole thing is one thousend times bigger!

 

I recognise several kinds of programmers, and I appreciate some of them.

 

There is the guy slowly, but constantly working on his project, letting people know, just without any hype. I know he won't fail, but if he did, I knew he strieved to accomplish his 'mission' (remember, spare time, true life?)

 

Then there is the guy silently working on his project, speaking only when he has got something in his hands. Good!

 

Then there is the guy hyping here and there, starting, disappearing, and reappearing again with more hype then ever. NO GOOD, since he's only raising hopes and making people anxious. Of course, if he comes with something new, I'll buy his product as well, but his main effect is NOISE.

 

Then there is the vapourware guy. Funny, but confusing and NO GOOD.

 

I know there are also intermediate kind of guys...

 

How can an Occasional Gamer handle this, and so becoming a Jaguar addict?

I do follow regularly Jag news on different sites, since my job let me in front of a computer nearly all the day, and when I take a five minutes break I know what to do; neverthless sometimes I find things and say, "where have I been?".

 

Then the production is small and there sn't enough for everybody.

LOGICAL: if I need to set a production run AND I can't figure how many will be interested, I'd prefer an undestimate run!

 

Then comes the bidding site and everybody goes mad at high prices.

 

I KNOW THERE IS A BETTER WAY!

(end of ranting)

[jaysmith2000]

Can you give an example of where you have seen conflicting information? I frequent JSII, AA, JI2, Static Gamer and Jagwire and haven't seen any of that (although I may have missed something).

 

Thanks.

 

Jason

[justclaws]

This is a rant' date=' and a provocation, too.[/quote']Great thread!

 

I don't mean to stimulate any flame war (and please lock this thread if any happens; however I'm sure nothing will happen' date=' not any more ).[/quote']I agree. I can't see any cause for flames! :-)

 

By reading here and somewhere else' date=' I noticed that it's nearly impossible to track down Jag future releases, not because of 'sliding releases', but because of chaotic informations. [/quote'] The trouble is that some people use information as property, I think.

 

Just yesterday I read about a game that was supposed to be stopped' date=' then it looks it's going to be completed along with a pair of new things. At website X you read something, at website Y you read the exact opposite, at site Z you read nothing. Confusing, isn't it?[/quote']Indeed, I'm really confused already! :-)

 

Is it still going this 'underground war'?

There never was an war within the UnderGround' date=' only a war of words against it, on the basis that it was an entity, rather than just a mailing list and a group of Jaguar fans trying to help each other out with code problems.

 

I don't think this is going to be good to the Jag' date=' not everybody can read ten forums at a time, ON A DAILY BASIS![/quote']It seems news/info is becoming property, no longer free for everybody.

 

How can an Occasional Gamer handle this' date=' and so becoming a Jaguar addict?[/quote']It's tough indeed, and sometimes I wonder if I can even be bothered with the "scene" after all these years. There are a few people who enjoy conflict and contribute nothing!?!

 

I recognise several kinds of programmers' date=' and I appreciate some of them. [/quote']Your categories and ideas work for me.

 

Then comes the bidding site and everybody goes mad at high prices.

It depends whether people want to release games and other things for everybody to have, or as collector items. Recent items have generally been in category#2, due to limited production. Products from Songbird and StarCat continue to be available, perhaps with short periods of out-of-stock, because these developers aim at buyer type#1.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, but be clear they're different.

 

All this in my humble opinion, of course... thanks for the thoughts.

 

Cheers,

JustClaws.

[Matthias]

Hello!

 

Can you give an example of where you have seen conflicting information? I frequent JSII' date=' AA, JI2, Static Gamer and Jagwire and haven't seen any of that (although I may have missed something).

 

Thanks.

 

Jason[/quote']

 

I support this request, an example would be helpfull.

I'm reading JI2, AA, JagWire, MyAtari, JagDev.org and Atari.org, but can't imagine about which project(s) you are talking about, Paolo.

 

Regards

Matthias

[Trip_Cannon]

I read a posting at JI2 and it stated that a Megaman clone was coming out in the near future. I hope I'm not crossing any boundries by reposting on here but...

 

I made a Game called Megalord on a Program called Game Maker. It features very nice Gameplay that resembles a cross between Mega Man and Super Mario Brothers. It is reaching Great Acclaim. It is for the PC. I am Porting it to the Jaguar, and possibly to the Saturn. I will sell a limited number of Jaguar Versions for 28 Dollars each. I will only sell 34 Copies, so hurry! I am making a new Website, and went it is up, it will be called www.faction.tripod.com. I will Post here to let you guys know when I'm finished with everything!

 

Can anybody shed some light on this?

[Tyrant]

Hmm... I dont know ANYTHING about this so this is pure speculation based on the quoted text.

 

I made a Game called Megalord on a Program called Game Maker.

This should be your first alarm bell. He says he made a game using a program called "Game Maker". Without knowing what this "Game Maker" is, it sounds very much like a box-of-presets-and-scripting type game development setup. A newbie-friendly language, possably 80% drag and drop, with any code writen in a very high level scripting language. Porting this to the Jaguar, for which one must code entirely in assembly, sounds next to impossible for the individual concerned. People who can write things in asm are not the kind of people who use such game tool kits usually, except as very quick 5 minute proof of concepts.

 

I will sell a limited number of Jaguar Versions for 28 Dollars each.

Second alarm bell. He dosnt mention how far along in the porting process he is, but I get the feeling he's only just begun it, if this is the case (and I could be wrong), then it would seem odd that he already knows how much he will sell it for, at a quite precise (and odd) figure of $28.

 

I will only sell 34 Copies, so hurry!

Third alarm bell. The size of the run is also rather odd to say the least... why 34 copies? And how can we hurry? Hurry and do what? He hasnt finished the game yet and it is not yet available, what is there to hurry about? This to me seems that he's a hype and vaporware merchant who's trying to get everyone all excited by picking figures out of the air, but I could be wrong.

 

I am making a new Website, and went it is up, it will be called www.faction.tripod.com.

Fourth alarm bell. www.faction.tripod.com does not exist, but faction.tripod.com apears to belong to a punk band, and not a jaguar homebrew coder. While there is nothing to stop members of a punk band from also being games programmers, it does not seem especially likely.

 

Of course I could be wrong about all of this, and there could be a new Jaggy game coming out soon, I hope so, but somehow I doubt it.

[Starcat]

Hi !

 

Yes. I have to fully agree with tyrant. I don't believe in the people who pop up from time to time and the first thing they do is claim that they would do a Jag game. Maybe even claim they would make a revolutionary 3D game (like those people who claimed they wanted to make a FF7 like game) without even being experienced Jag coders.

 

To be honest I would only take announcements serious, that meet these points:

 

-Solid prove is offered in the form of playable demos, screenshots, movie clips etc. (although screenshots and movies could also be fake, so that isn't 100 % safe either, but I guess people won't bother to do so much work for nothing)

 

-Who is the person who announces it ? Is he a member of the Jag scene for some time already ? Has he released anything else yet ? What coding background does he have ? etc

 

-If somebody "unknown" announces anything, maybe even talks about doing something special that nobody else did before and maybe even starts hyping it already, that's probably the biggest sign of warning.

 

Personally I would be very careful about anybody who isn't in the Jag community at least for a few months and/or who has not at least shown that he can code in the form of demo binaries of some sort.

 

If I was you, I would mainly listen to the developers known in the community, look forward to and support their projects... That way, it's much safer, that there is actually something being done.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Matthias]

Hello!

 

To the topic' date=' now.

By reading here and somewhere else, I noticed that it's nearly impossible to track down Jag future releases, not because of 'sliding releases', but because of chaotic informations.

....

 

If you try to get news about PS2 releases, EVERY source will give you the exact same infos, although the whole thing is one thousend times bigger!

[/quote']

 

You should not forget that game-companies usually have a department for public-relations, which send out packages of informations (including demo-versions or video-tapes, and even descriptions which can be used directly as a base for an article) to game-magazines.

Hobby-developers usually don't do this!

 

Regards

Matthias

[badcoder]

Another tells me of your question is for coders.

 

When I am coding I am not writing home pages but am perhaps getting them by another with help for me. Other coders are also holding pages and giving news in those pages. When you are wanting updating with news, you are not wanting promises, coders are always losing to you. Telling always parts with no showing makes only owners angry and losing the interest.

For news there is a saying 'eyes that are not any more seen are soon forgotten'. Against news is 'the jug can not go to drink every time again easily'. Finally 'if you marry it is best to sleep only in your own bed'.

 

Have fun!

 

BadCoder.

[Trip_Cannon]

Hmm... I dont know ANYTHING about this so this is pure speculation based on the quoted text.

 

I made a Game called Megalord on a Program called Game Maker.

This should be your first alarm bell.

 

There seems to be quite a lengthy discussion about this on JI2. I can't say if it's real or not. But I've frequented the internet enough to know that not a lot of these games or announcements will ever get released. I, personally, don't believe it. I was posting this to possibly help Paolo's rant. But I don't know if it did or not because Paolo hasn't written since... I'm interested in hearing what he has to say though.. if this was one of the instances that he was talking about...

[Paolo]

Hi, guys.

Sorry for the late reply Jaysmith2000.

One recent thing I can refer to is the GORF (pluz, 3D, whatever...) thread I read on JS2, of which I didn't find trace here at AA (though I may miss something, here). Last time I read about Gorf, it was Terance writing about PLUZ, looong time ago, since he went on with mad bodies (and now with something new, it seems, GOOD!)

But now I see the 3D version on development again (still no mention here at AA) but with a new team (including Terance) -no mentions at Force design website as well-

 

Yes, I am confused!

 

(PLEASE note this is only an example of various confusing things that I found around)

 

Ciao!

[K3V]

Gorf Pluz and Gorf 3D are two different projects. Pluz is being done by Force Design and 3D by 3D Stooges Software. Terance is on both development teams. Could be where you're getting confused

[jaysmith2000]

Hi, guys.

Sorry for the late reply Jaysmith2000.

One recent thing  I can refer to is the GORF (pluz, 3D, whatever...) thread I read on JS2, of which I didn't find trace here at AA (though I may miss something, here). Last time I read about Gorf, it was Terance writing about PLUZ, looong time ago, since he went on with mad bodies (and now with something new, it seems, GOOD!)

But now I see the 3D version on development again (still no mention here at AA) but with a new team (including Terance) -no mentions at Force design website as well-

 

Yes, I am confused!

 

(PLEASE note this is only an example of various confusing things that I found around)

 

Ciao!

 

That's a good point. Steve "Gorf" Scavone has found somewhat of a home over at JS2, that's probably why the announcement was only over there. He was also nice enough to let us post some exclusive photos of the game in action. I created a special forum for the "Exclusive" items so folks who are new or don't frequent my forums alot won't miss any exciting items if they decide to stop by. Both Gorf threads (with pics) are in that forum as well as some exclusive Tiny Toons sketches, MightyFrog screenshots and a proposal for a Drag Racing game for the Jaguar.

[Paolo]

@ jaysmith2000

This helps a ton. Thanks!

 

@ trip_cannon

your example is (to me) clear enough as vapourware, as Tyrant and Starcat pointed with many points. This is not confusing me

 

@ Matthias

I know about PR: we could say that vacuum is the only thing they sell, but do that well, and everybody goes mad at "favourite game here" 20th replica and want to buy it

 

In a scenario with more organic things, maybe a single PR 'team' could manage news and announcements for a whole lot of projects

 

(or am I going utopic? )

 

Later

[justclaws]

Paulo,

 

In a scenario with more organic things, maybe a single PR 'team' could manage news and announcements for a whole lot of projects  

I really don't understand your reply to the replies to your questions!

We still don't know what games you were talking about when you

said you'd heard some conflicting information, and that one game

which was cancelled was still coming. I'm confused now, not you! :-)

 

I'd rather hoped that a news site like JagFrontPageNews would be

still continuing to chart the news about the Jaguar home-brews but

I'm not sure this is the case. Maybe once JaguDome news is back,

or I get DevCats updates uploaded, I can do this, but I'd hope an

independent 3rd-party not involved with the UnderGround would...

 

Cheers,

JustClaws.

[Paolo]

I really don't understand your reply to the replies to your questions!

We still don't know what games you were talking about when you

said you'd heard some conflicting information, and that one game

which was cancelled was still coming. I'm confused now, not you! :-)

 

I didn't have one single game in mind, but the latest example about GORF was quite well sumarizing my disorientation.

 

I'd rather hoped that a news site like JagFrontPageNews would be

still continuing to chart the news about the Jaguar home-brews but

I'm not sure this is the case. Maybe once JaguDome news is back,

or I get DevCats updates uploaded, I can do this, but I'd hope an

independent 3rd-party not involved with the UnderGround would...

 

YEAH! Right. FrontPageNews! That was a lighthouse for me time ago.

 

I understand that you'd like a 3rd-party to step up in a such project, but I would not have problems in knowing that someone 'trustable' is collecting news AND being involved with developing.

[Pocket]

The fact is there are several good Jaguar forums but no good Jaguar website left with fresh news. Jaguar FrontPageNews and Jagu-Dome, where are you ?

[justclaws]

The fact is there are several good Jaguar forums but no good Jaguar website left with fresh news. Jaguar FrontPageNews and Jagu-Dome, where are you ?

You're right, and I can't promise that Jagu-Dome can do the news...

I think Wes and Kev gave up the news to FrontPageNews also, really.

 

Maybe we should us the Jaguar-Homebrew group mailing list for more

news and reports on uncoming home-brew news, rather than the old

role of announcing new downloads, and allowing feedback on them?

 

It would seem sensible... perhaps some developers might agree...

but there's a habit for some people to post their news on forums.

 

Cheers,

JustClaws.

[Paolo]

I don't know, but I am not at ease with mailing lists used for announcements: I mean, if there is a nice website with a nice and clear table with all the schedules and news, I don't think it can be replaced by a flow of mail messages. (just my opinion, of course, and whatever comes up with 360 deggres of information is absolutely welcome)

regards

[Trip_Cannon]

So you're looking for a dedicated webpage for the Jaguar? It's kind of difficult to produce a page with fresh content daily or even weekly if there's nothing new to post right? How much new news in the Jaguar world is there? Wouldn't most of the Jaguar news make it right here to the front page of AA anyway?

[Paolo]

Don't get me wrong, I do like the news page at AA front, only I'd like more a Jag-specific page.

By the way, what I am interested in is the *content* of the page, and the way it is collected.

Regards

[justclaws]

It's kind of difficult to produce a page with fresh content daily or even weekly if there's nothing new to post right? How much new news in the Jaguar world is there? Wouldn't most of the Jaguar news make it right here to the front page of AA anyway?

I think you'd be surprised how much news there is, if as Paolo says,

a single page with all the news on it existed, as JFPN was as active

as in the past. Newly discovered alphas/betas, ROM dumps, schematics,

documents, source code, home-brew updates, home-brew screenshots

or movies, US/€/UK Jagfest news, interviews, new/updated Jag sites...

It's why the different forums exist, news isn't shared to them all, yet.

 

Cheers,

JustClaws.

[Starcat]

Hi !

 

Yes, I think Richard is right. There are enough things that could be done with such a page... Like interviews with developers, previews, and generally making projects more obvious to the Jag fans...

 

For example I am at the moment working on a website update of the Eerievale website, just to make the project more obvious to Jag fans and to make it more clear what it is about.

Richard pointed out to me, that most Jag fans obviously are not really counting Eerievale as potential release (and thus are not looking forward to it as much as they should) simply because they don't understand what the game and adventure genre are actually about. There is nothing comparable on the Jag.

 

Actually I have recieved more positive feedback from non-Jag fans about Eerievale, than from actual Jag fans. I think that's a BIG warning sign, that something is going wrong. I also heard countless times already "Why are you doing such a cool game for a system nobody knows or plays ? Don't waste your time, create a PC version !". So there is a lot of interest from PC adventure fans in the game, even though it isn't even for their system.

 

So when general adventure fans seem to realize the great potential immediately and most Jag fans don't, it shows that Jag fans obviously don't understand yet, what the game is about or that we are truely fighting on long lost ground here.

 

The time that I spend with doing articles/updates to clear things like that up is time, that could also be invested in the actual development, but as there are no sites doing things like that, I have to do it myself

 

Richard also made it very clear to me, how important it is, to clear things like that up as soon as possible. The longer the potential of Eerievale is unclear to the Jag fans, the more people loose interest in it.

And I think that would be a real pity. A project with the potential of Eerievale really should under no circumstances die, because of too little interest.

 

And just to give you an idea, what I think about it...

Ok, I know this might not be objective to say, but

I have very rarely been as thrilled and anticipating about a project as I am about Eerievale. This is also the first time that I am actually awaiting and looking forward to a project of my own.

As an adventure fan, Eerievale is one of the most interesting Jag games ever.

For me personally there are only two other Jag games that will hopefully be of identical potential/quality when they are done. I think the developers of the titles read this forum as well and know which ones I mean. They should continue their hard work and not give up, as the Jag really NEEDS those games desperately.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Paolo]

... Newly discovered alphas/betas, ROM dumps, schematics,

documents, source code, home-brew updates, home-brew screenshots

or movies, US/€/UK Jagfest news, interviews, new/updated Jag sites...

 

gimme, Gimme, GIMME!!!!

 

Starcat: I believe that, even if coding time is precious, in our case PublicRelations time is as precious as well, and since (as said before) Jag scene isn't big enough to allow companies to have a PR office, you'll have to do both jobs to keep the interest up...

 

Ciao!

[Gunstar]

Hi !

 

Yes, I think Richard is right. There are enough things that could be done with such a page... Like interviews with developers, previews, and generally making projects more obvious to the Jag fans...  

 

For example I am at the moment working on a website update of the Eerievale website, just to make the project more obvious to Jag fans and to make it more clear what it is about.  

Richard pointed out to me, that most Jag fans obviously are not really counting Eerievale as potential release (and thus are not looking forward to it as much as they should) simply because they don't understand what the game and adventure genre are actually about. There is nothing comparable on the Jag.  

 

Actually I have recieved more positive feedback from non-Jag fans about Eerievale, than from actual Jag fans.  I think that's a BIG warning sign, that something is going wrong. I also heard countless times already "Why are you doing such a cool game for a system nobody knows or plays ? Don't waste your time, create a PC version !". So there is a lot of interest from PC adventure fans in the game, even though it isn't even for their system.

 

So when general adventure fans seem to realize the great potential immediately and most Jag fans don't, it shows that Jag fans obviously don't understand yet, what the game is about or that we are truely fighting on long lost ground here.

 

The time that I spend with doing articles/updates to clear things like that up is time, that could also be invested in the actual development, but as there are no sites doing things like that, I have to do it myself    

 

Richard also made it very clear to me, how important it is, to clear things like that up as soon as possible. The longer the potential of Eerievale is unclear to the Jag fans, the more people loose interest in it.

And I think that would be a real pity. A project with the potential of Eerievale really should under no circumstances die, because of too little interest.  

 

And just to give you an idea, what I think about it...

Ok, I know this might not be objective to say, but  

I have very rarely been as thrilled and anticipating about a project as I am about Eerievale. This is also the first time that I am actually awaiting and looking forward to a project of my own.  

As an adventure fan, Eerievale is one of the most interesting Jag games ever.  

For me personally there are only two other Jag games that will hopefully be of identical potential/quality when they are done. I think the developers of the titles read this forum as well and know which ones I mean. They should continue their hard work and not give up, as the Jag really NEEDS those games desperately.  

 

Regards, Lars.

 

 

Ohh, Jag fans are definately interested Starcat, but you of all people should know generally how long it takes from us fans finding out about a game being in development and when we actually have the game in our hands; look how long we waited for Battlesphere. You announced Star Alliance like about 2 years ago, and we still haven't even seen as much on it (demo) as we have on Eerievale, so why should we expect EerieVale, which has been in development much less time, be here anytime soon and get excited over it? We just don't want to hold are breath, and although it's great that you are working on multiple Jag games, it definately HURT and not help, our enthusiasm when we are all expecting this great shooter game, then suddely find out you are working on another title, which means to the average fan a MUCH longer wait for BOTH! I loved the way Songbird and ScatoLogic use to have updates of their game(s) with percentage(%) done on certain aspects of the game, this showed us that progress was being made and let us know what was left to be done, it helped smooth the waiting. Now, we don't get that from Carl anymore, now it's Mystery Jag Project #1...what the hell is that? How can we get excited over that when we don't even know what it is? It's fine to keep projects in the dark, and suprise people with them, but don't expect us to get excited about something we no little of...I'm looking forward to EerieVale too, to some extent, but I must admit that I tired of the genre years ago, which is why no one makes the genre anymore, people grew tired of it years ago, so it won't be until it's released, at least in a more substantial form, before we get excited, we need to see real game play to draw us back into the genre. Who gives a shit what PC people say anyway, they get everything, if they want this game, they can buy a Jaguar. A news page would definately ad some excitement to all the known developments, but htere will always be secret developments too, as some developers are so part-time, they don't if or when their project will come to fruition, so why announce anything? One thing Jaguar owners have had enough of is Vaporware. If development is announced, and you give out news on it, you damn well better be ready to produce or except the flack of the community, no matter how much effort you put into the project. If you keep it on the down-low, then of course you won't generate any excitement over the product, but you also won't have to take it in the teeth if you fail to deliver.