Atari RPGs?

[StanJr]

Hold yer horses there Chris. While it is a VERY daunting and difficult task to create a RPG for the 2600, I don't think it is totally impossible. Difficult? Yes. EXTREMELY limiting? Absolutely. Impossible? Almost.

If you look at a game like Dragonstomper, it is probably one of the best examples of a 2600 RPG, but it is very rough and requires that stupid cassette to work (I hate the whole idea of that thing)

Many people nowadays have very limited access to superchargers or cuttle carts etc. So making a game that requires a lot of extraneous equipment will limit those who can actually enjoy the game.

It would be nice to make an Atari RPG that would all fit into one little black cartridge, but it ain't gonna be easy or pretty.

 

HOWEVER! I am wrestling with 6502 assembly as we speak and may some year actually understand it. Should that happen, my first priority (after making two other planned games that will stretch my programming muscles) is to create a "Zelda" for the 2600. So we are of the same mind, but there are some very real and very tough obstacles to work through and around.

If I ever tackle 6502 and get comfortable with programming it, I'll let you know. I hear your cries and hope to be able to respond, its just not that easy.

 

Understanding Stan

[cwilkson]

Hey there Stan,

 

Nope...there are no hardware difficulties. (other than the standard "Chris's time is precious" thing

 

The afore mentioned Megacart is a cartridge board taht fits inside a standard Combat type cart case. I've not built the full prototype yet, but all the pieces have been individually tested. Also about 4 years ago.

 

I fully agree that the Supercharger is not for everyone. They just aren't common enough to be a viable format for new software. The Cuttle Cart from Schell's Electronics (Hi Chad!) is great, but prohibitively expensive and difficult to produce. Having made every single Combat II board by myself, by hand, I know all about the pain involved in producing new hardware in quantity. And the cost. EEK! Ahh, but I digress. The point is, the only reason that this cartridge doesn't exist in physical form is a lack of interest from programmers. But it does exist as a fully fleshed out specification that software can be written for. The other reason, is that I refuse to release a cartridge for which the parts cost is above $15...and I'm trying for $10. But that's a far distant second.

 

Regarding programming games, by all means stretch you muscles. And build them. For you will need all your 1337 5ki1z and those of many others to pull off a true masterpiece like Zelda. That's why I haven't tried yet. I kick a lot of ass, but not nearly that much. BTW, are you on the Stella programmer's list?

 

-Chris

[cwilkson]

Oh right. That was the other thing. Just in case there was confusion, I was stating that the Legend of Zelda definitely *is* doable. With some minor limits on graphic detail, but not on game play or features.

 

-Chris

[Ze_ro]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Wilkson:

In short: I don't think there are any technical issues preventing true RPGs for the 2600. It's just a lack of programmers willing to take on the task. (And it *is* a large task.) And the programmers will cite a lack of interested gamers.

---

 

I'd love to work on something like this, but I've pretty much already decided on my first project that I plan to eventually attempt Unfortunately, I've been quite busy with university and a social life (apparently, I have one after all), so I haven't been able to spend the time I want to on it

 

I really think that if anyone were to try and make an actual RPG for the 2600, that it should be done as a group and not just one individual. I wouldn't mind being a part of this group someday, but I don't have the time at the moment

 

As for the reason people don't write RPG's for the Atari, I think it's mostly the technical aspects of it. Sure, it's possible, but how many people have the skill to actually pull it off? If you just put together a quick action game, you can get a fun game that people will like. Making an RPG will take significantly more time, and there's less chance that people will like it (Anyone can enjoy a mindless action game, getting into the storyline of an RPG isn't always as easy, even for an RPG fan). So basically, you can get a cheap thrill from programming a nice shoot-em-up game, but an RPG is much more involved, complicated and time consuming. Most people who take up programming want to see the fruits of their labor as soon as possible (me included).

 

quote

About 4 years ago (has it really been that long?) some very promising RPG engine prototypes were written as demos

 

???

 

This is news to me... do you have any links/roms?

 

quote:

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There is a 2600 cartridge format, called the "Megacart", that was developed *specifically* with RPGs in mind. It supports up to a megaBYTE (that's 8 megabits) of total memory. And half of that is battery-backed RAM.

---

 

That's all well and good, but you're forgetting one of the main tools of the homebrew developer: The Supercharger (or the Cuttle Cart if you're luckier than me). The Supercharger makes it ridiculously easy to test a game that you've written, which is why most homebrew people use these things. There's no question that the megacart has the hardware necessary to do the job, but programming for it would be difficult since you'd have to burn a test rom every time you wanted to test in a real Atari (Emulators are good, but you'll eventually want to try it in the real thing... I assume that emulators support the megacart?)

 

quote:

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I'm convinced that the original "Legend of Zelda" and many other NES Era RPGs could be faithfully ported to the 2600, granted necessary graphics tradeoffs.

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This isn't meant as an insult... but then why don't you play Legend of Zelda itself? Not to discredit the homebrew community, but I have my doubts that you're going to see an RPG as good as Zelda come out anytime soon. I know we all love the Atari, but it's really not well suited for RPG's. I think making an RPG would basically be just to try and round out the library of Atari games rather than to actually create a playable game (Not that this is necessarily a bad thing... I always enjoy a good tech demo). As cool as a 2600 RPG might be, it's really better suited to a more powerful system like the 7800, or at least the 5200 (keypads are useful).

 

--Zero

[moycon]

quote:

About 4 years ago (has it really been that long?) some very promising RPG engine prototypes were written as demos

 

Yep I know exactly what you're talking about Chris. I dont know how long ago they were done...Ive been searching for the demos on the net...But so far came up empty...I'm pretty sure I have the .bin files at home if anyone want to take a peek. It seemed to me the "game" itself was unplayable...or didnt have instructions... It reminded me of Ultima a little...With a large area you could walk around in... with water and forests etc... Is that what you're talking about? Then creatures would attack you it seems. I cant hardly remember now. Im pretty sure the demo's (plural) are in my Stella files at home.

[cwilkson]

This is gonna be really short because I'm having windows problems. Sorry.

 

A group effort is good, but I think that the one man, one game approach is still applicable. The way most of the better homebrews are writeen today is one author, getting suggestions from many people. It's a good mix that works well. In this case, I think the main display engine for each section of an RPG (town, dungeon, overworld, whatever) should be done primarily by a single person. But the game as a whole could be written by many.

 

I think many write for the 2600 *because* of the challenge. But you're right. This would be a monster. And burnout is definitely an issue for game authors.

 

Demos: I only found 3 roms, with no source. Of those, one 1 will run and it's just simply a display kernel...no player movement, etc. I know that both of them did work, once upon a time. At least in emulation, but I only found early versions. I'll do some more looking eventually. If you want, you can check the Stella archives: http://www.biglist.com/stella

 

Development: A lot of people rely heavily on emulators, esp. Z26, until well into development. Stella supports the Megacart format, and z26 could be made to. If I knew that someone was writing for the format, that would give me a reason to continue the hardware side of things. A dev cart would be a priority. In fact I started one, but then gave up for lack of interest.

 

NES vs. 2600: You're right. the 2600 doesn't have enough memory. But based on those demos, I think it could be done. I can think of several people who *could* do a Zelda port, and do it well. But this would take a lot of time and it's only a hobby.

 

Porting an existing game is a great way to learn to program. At least for really polishing your skills. It allows you to concentrate on code and not bother with play mechanics, etc. There is a lot of code sharing on the 2600. Once someone completed an RPG in a given format, it becomes easier to do a second one. This all leads to original RPGs once people are familiar with the process. My first 2600 game will be an RPG port of somekind, but I won't start until I've finished school. (sucks, doesn't it

 

Ok, I've reached my Winblows tolerance limit.

But I'd be happy to take this up in email.

 

-Chris

[mos6507]

It's not just WotC they have to worry about.

 

Intellivision Productions do not have uncontested rights to the M-Network catalog. Telegames, I believe, is claiming ownership also. They have an agreement with them which allowed for Sea Battle/Swordfight, but nothing beyond that.

 

So it's not as easy as it may seem for them to release any other titles.

 

IP was interested in publishing a commercial 2600 emu pack with the M-Network and Starpath titles through us and it stalled once they discovered they might not have clear ownership.

[ratfink]

Didn't Intellivision Productions get in trouble for releasing the "original" version of Treasure of Tarmin on the "Intellivision Lives" CD-ROM? They called it "Minotaur" on there but I think they still got flack.

 

And just to prove I'm not ashamed of my youth as an AD&D nerd, the rules and game play of both Tarmin and Tower of Doom are NOTHING like the actual rules to AD&D or D&D, so I can't see that being a problem but you never know.

[slapdash]

Albert wrote:

quote:

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However, given how long it's taken them to deliver Sea Battle and Sword Fight cartridges, maybe they figure they don't want to release anything else until they get that situation under control.

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There may be much truth to that, but it's not the manufacture that's the problem, it's paying for them. The actual manufacturer isn't always paid promptly for the carts and isn't going to give them to IP until they're paid for them.

 

quote:

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If they're in no position to manufacture carts, it would be nice if they removed the copyright screens and released the games for people to play.

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If they release the ROMs, they shouldn't even remove the copyright screens.

[Albert]

quote

There may be much truth to that, but it's not the manufacture that's the problem, it's paying for them. The actual manufacturer isn't always paid promptly for the carts and isn't going to give them to IP until they're paid for them.

 

Sounds like you know more about this situation than I do. So, who is manufacturing the carts for them? I was told that Sean Kelly was doing the ColecoVision carts, but I'm not sure if he was also responsible for creating the 2600 carts.

 

quote

If they release the ROMs, they shouldn't even remove the copyright screens.

 

I agree, it would be nice to get the original, unmolested ROMs, but at this point I'd be happy to get at least something.

 

..Al

[ClassicGMR]

Now - before someone pulls out a flamethrower and shoots me with it REPEATEDLY(or bans me... hi mods! ) - I know I am digging this one up from a VERY deep grave. It's easier to pick up this conversation because:

 

A) all the information is here intact

B) it's the only conversation I could find regarding the Atari protos shown at CGE 99

C) I couldn't find anything even remotely recent that mentioned this

 

Many apologies in advance to everyone. So on with the necromancy!!

 

Originally posted by Russ Perry Jr:

Also, they could just release them without the "AD&D" part in the titles and be legal (that's why Adventures of Tron became Adventures of GX-12).

 

I've wondered myself why they haven't done this. It's not like these games have graphics that could absolutely be associated with anything in the AD&D universe. Although if some AD&D *rules* were used in the games' algorithms, those might have to be changed (remember when Fallout was supposed to be a GURPS-based game?) But these are 2600 games, so I doubt this would be very difficult.

 

....

 

..Al

 

These games were shown 8-9 years ago at a CGE and nothing has progressed since then. Has it been officially decided these protos will never see my Atari cartridge slot nor my beloved Stella? Has this situation just fallen by the wayside and no one tried to chase it down over at IP? Nothing has "snuck out"?

 

I'm curious and would love to check out these games.

[DaveD]

Howsabout the upcoming Dungeon? While it may not be as detailed as true RPGs it certainly borrows heavily from those types of games.

[rhindlethereddragon]

Yay!!!! It went through that time! It worked! WHHHHHHEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

 

-Chris (who had a really good weekend)

 

I can't believe nobody's brought up DARK MAGE... this is an RPG through and through.

[Great Hierophant]

Dragonstomper is the only game that I could describe as an RPG that I know of on the VCS. Adventure, Secret Quest, Raiders of the Lost Ark, the Swordquests, all lack certain essentials. There is no leveling up, experience or money accumulation. Even Zelda has shops and money. RPGs back in the heyday of the VCS did not have complex storylines or detailed quests, they had dungeon exploration and wilderness encounters.

[EarthQuake]

Dragonstomper covers pretty much all aspects of it, but Dungeon really hits the spot as a simple and extremely fun RPG-styled game. It is probably more appropriate to call it a dungeon crawl or roguelike game, but then again, a full-fledged RPG is a difficult task for the 2600, so this game is a great middle ground. It is probably my favorite game next to Adventure.

[Great Hierophant]

One thing that Dragonstomper lacks is an experience level system. You can kill all the monsters you want, but your character's abilities will not improve on their own. You must spend money to increase your abilities. Experience in Ultima 1-3 is only slightly more meaningful. (You buy or find statistic and hit point increases.)