Super Mario Bros. on Atari 7800?

[7800Lover]

I forgot where or from whom I heard this, but there was supposedly at one time a plan to bring a port of Super Mario Bros. to the Atari 7800.

 

Does anyone know if there was any truth to this? How would SMB have looked on the 7800?

[SS]

It might have looked OK but it would have sounded awful!

[Trip_Cannon]

Sounds like fantasy land to me. I don't see any reason why Nintendo would give anybody the right to use their hottest commodity, especially to one of their competitors.

 

analmux is working on a Super Mario Clone currently for the 8-bit computer line and there was talk of porting that to the 7800. You can check out that thread here:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35280

[+Mitch]

That rumor started with a typo in a gaming magazine. It was actually supposed to be Mario Bros not super.

 

Mitch

[Room 34]

It might have looked OK but it would have sounded awful!

I would LOVE to hear the SMB theme in the mangled tones of the 7800 (i.e. the 2600).

 

That gives me an idea...

 

*ROOM 34 RUNS OFF FOR HIS SYNTHCART*

 

 

Speaking of which, I have some new music for FREE download featuring the Synthcart... but I swear I didn't post this just to pimp it. http://room34.com/music/lots/[/size]

[Classic Pac]

But who knows what the 7800 is capable of. We get ideas from games such as Midnight Mutants which is a huge world, and Tower Toppler which in the bonus round trually shows what the 7800 is capable graphic wise. And for the size of the games "K" wise on Atari Protos . com they show off a 512K version of Midnight Mutants. I don't think you can just dismiss this so easily.

[Ferris]

The 7800 is easily capable of a game like Super Mario Bros. For that matter, I wouldn't push it past the 5200 either.

 

Those were just rumors at the time, like Mitch said because of a misprint.

[DracIsBack]

But who knows what the 7800 is capable of. We get ideas from games such as Midnight Mutants which is a huge world, and Tower Toppler which in the bonus round trually shows what the 7800 is capable graphic wise. And for the size of the games "K" wise on Atari Protos . com they show off a 512K version of Midnight Mutants. I don't think you can just dismiss this so easily.

 

 

Midnight Mutants is, IIRC, a 1-megabit (128K game) but you're right in that the "shortness" of most 7800 games isn't a technical limitation of the system, but a tight wallet of the Tramiels.

 

There's nothing technically from preventing the 7800 from playing 1-megabit, 2-megabit, 4-megabit games like the NES and SMS except Jack T and company not wanting to pay for the licensing, development, testing and manufacturing of games that large.

 

Doesn't Mitch have a prototype board for an Atari 7800 4 megabit cartridge that wasn't ever used in a game?

 

As for Super Mario, if they used a POKEY chip, it could probably sound pretty good!

[Classic Pac]

and another thing...

 

I guess what most collectors never realize is that the NES used a separte sound chip. and your right about that 4 meg game.

 

What I and I guess what most 7800 owners like to see is a cart that pushes the 7800 to the limit. Lets not forget that the NES, 7800 and the T-16 used the same CPU!

[Tempest]

There's only one way to settle this. Someone needs to write a Super Mario Bros. clone for the 7800. So get to it!

 

Actually I'd be interested in seeing if someone could mock up a nice screenshot using the 7800's graphics just to see if it could get close to the NES version. I've always been under the impression that the 7800's graphics were weaker than the NES, but that just might be due poor programming.

 

Tempest

[Trip_Cannon]

Does anybody read these posts?

 

I already mentioned, there's a SMB clone in the works for Atari computers. They ported some of those graphics to the 7800 already. Posts with pics are included! Check it out!

[+Mitch]

Doesn't Mitch have a prototype board for an Atari 7800 4 megabit cartridge that wasn't ever used in a game?

 

As for Super Mario, if they used a POKEY chip, it could probably sound pretty good!

 

Yes, but it's not a prototype board. The board that shipped with Commando had the capability to go to 512 kilobytes (4 megabits) in addition to the onboard Pokey. Commando is only a 128 kilobyte (1 megabit) game though.

 

As Trip_Cannon mentioned, check out the 8bit Super Mario conversion thread. A very quick port was made of it to the 7800 as a demo. There is a screenshot but no ROM.

 

Mitch

[DracIsBack]

I've always been under the impression that the 7800's graphics were weaker than the NES, but that just might be due poor programming.

 

After that lengthy discussion and analysis we all had about the 7800 and the NES a while ago, you still think that????

 

The architecture is different between the two. The 7800 is stronger in some areas, the NES in others. Ultimately, however, they are from the SAME generation.

[EricBall]

In http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44179 I did a fairly detailed comparison of the NES and 7800 (near the bottom of the first page).

 

Conclusion:  

Although the 7800 MARIA GPU has the capability of creating better graphics than the NES, it is hamstrung by the amount of CPU power required to maintain the display lists needed to create those graphics. Plus, the 7800 GPU halts the CPU while the graphics are being created, further reducing the amount of CPU time available to the game. The NES wins out with it's easy to use fixed function GPU which leaves the CPU free to execute more code per frame.

[EricBall]

I guess what most collectors never realize is that the NES used a separte sound chip.

The NES sound generator is integrated into the 6502 CPU. (Part of the same IC, but no additional instructions.) It also puts the TIA and POKEY to shame. Specs from http://nesdev.parodius.com/2A03/

 

5 sound channels, 2 pulse (square), 1 triangle, 1 white noise, 1 digital.

Pulse channels have 4 duty cycle settings: 87.5%, 75%, 50%, and 25%. If you know how a pulse wave works, you will notice that the difference between 25% and 75% is indistinguishable to the human ear.

Pulse and triangle channels have an 11-bit frequency control, and is capable of producing tones ranging from approximately A-1 to B-8. The triangle channel is one octave lower.

Pulse and noise channels have 16 volume levels.

Triangle and digital channels have no volume control.

The triangle waveform is synthesized by modulating 16 volume steps, hence the lack of volume control and subtle metallic resonance-type sound noticable at low frequencies.

Noise channel has 4-bit frequency control, and is capable of producing 16 frequencies.

Noise channel has a special 'looped noise' setting that allows it to produce a metallic sound.

Digital channel can use a DMA method to play a sample, the sample depth is only 1-bit but it retains good quality by using a technique called "delta modulation", in which only the changes in the waveform are recorded.

Digital channel is capable of playing 7-bit samples through a method similar to a digital-to-analogue-converter, or DAC.

Digital channel's DMA method allows access to only 16k of sample data, but by using external bankswitching hardware you can overcome this limitation.

Pulse channels have a built-in frequency-sweep function, often used for sound effects.

Pulse channels have a built-in primitive volume envelope function.

All sound channels except digital have built-in time-length control.

 

Compare this with the TIA & POKEY which had a 2 or 4 channels of selectable LFSR pseudo-random waveforms and 8 or 16 bit frequency control.

[DracIsBack]

In http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44179 I did a fairly detailed comparison of the NES and 7800 (near the bottom of the first page).

 

Conclusion:  

Although the 7800 MARIA GPU has the capability of creating better graphics than the NES, it is hamstrung by the amount of CPU power required to maintain the display lists needed to create those graphics. Plus, the 7800 GPU halts the CPU while the graphics are being created, further reducing the amount of CPU time available to the game. The NES wins out with it's easy to use fixed function GPU which leaves the CPU free to execute more code per frame.

 

 

There were a lot of great points for and against brought up in that thread, which I recommend everyone read.

 

In a nutshell for everyone who didn't participate:

 

1. The two systems were from roughly the same generation, having been designed at roughly the same time. The idea of the NES being newer hardware is hogwash.

 

2. The two systems employ different graphical architecture in which certain games are easier to implement on one system or the other. The NES is more adept at playing tile-based side scrollers. This isn't that the 7800 can't play them (Scrapyard Dog), but it is more work to create on the 7800 whereas the NES hardware was designed with that in mind. The 7800 is stronger at playing games where the display list is manipulated and games where a lot of moving objects shift around on a static screen. That's why few 7800 games have flicker (whereas many NES games do). Also, the 7800 is more adept at games like BALLBLAZER and SPACE HARRIER with its architecture than the NES is.

 

3. Some strengths are universal: the NES has universally better sound than the 7800 ... also the NES, Commodore 64, 5200, Atari XL etc. Likewise, the 7800 can move around more objects ... close to 100 than the NES.

 

4. Some things are better on paper but seldom implemented. The 7800 technically has higher resolution than the NES, but almost no 7800 games make use of that resolution. Most NES games are higher resolution than most 7800 games. The 7800 also has more colors than the NES (256 vs 64), which, if implemented right, results in less dithering. Example: see the Lucasfilm logo in 7800 Ballblazer and compare it to the Lucasfim logo in the NES version. On the other hand, the NES tended to produce colors in a way that resulted in brighter images than typical 7800 games.

 

And ... this is a biggie.

 

5. The NES was pushed to the max, by virtue of its popularity. The 7800 was not ... by virtue of not being as popular, by virtue of Nintendo locking up the good developers, and by virtue of the Tramiels being cheap.

 

The good NES developers of the day (ie. Konami, Nintendo, Temco, Acclain, EA etc) weren't making 7800 games. Little shops like Ibidinc and Imagineering were.

 

The 7800 wasn't popular enough to get 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations games from the developers ... whereas the NES did. Compare Super Mario 3 vs. 1 and look at the technical advances as a result of experience, new chips etc? Didn't happen on the 7800 front.

 

The Tramiels were also CHEAP. There is nothing preventing the 7800 from playing a 4 megabit game ... excepting Jack not wanting to pay to program or build it. They didn't pay for licensing. They didn't pay for top notch design talent. They didn't award heavy dev budgets.

 

In short, I maintain that points 1-4 didn't impact the 7800 library anywhere near as much as point 5 did.

 

The world never saw the best that the 7800 was capable of. Period.

[Gregory DG]

Actually I'd be interested in seeing if someone could mock up a nice screenshot using the 7800's graphics just to see if it could get close to the NES version.  I've always been under the impression that the 7800's graphics were weaker than the NES, but that just might be due poor programming.

I did that awhile back for this thread:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.p...p=535554#535554

[Classic Pac]

I became very well aquainted with the way both systems handle graphics. When another forum member questioned my opion of Xevious on the 7800 vs. NES. I still say it is possible simply do to the number of on screen sprites. When the number is low you can get outstanding graphics, high and it breaks up as in Planet Smashers

[Godzilla]

I think the 7800 could easily do mario, just look at scrapyard dog. And though admittedly the nes sound chip is technically superior to the 2600 or pokey, I think that an on board pokey could easily handle the high-pitched bleeps of mario. I dont think a pokey could handle something like solstice, but the first mario, yea. Just listen to some of the modern stuff they are doing with pokey on the 8 bit forums, pretty impressive stuff.

[Ecernosoft]

We could add a POKEY chip to it. I'm currently also working on my own game, It's Conner time! and it sounds GREAT with the Pokey music! Or it will.. when I figure out how to program it. =(

[Ecernosoft]

Also note that I just joined a few days ago... =/

[ZylonBane]

I always wonder how newbies to these forums even find these decades-old threads, let alone why they think it's not an incredibly dumb idea to resurrect them.

[pacman000]

You press the last page button, then look for something interesting.

 

Why? You want to say something, & none of the new topics are interesting.

[Synthpopalooza]

Goes without saying ... my musical services for this are available if needed.  POKEY can do the music 98% to NES specs by simply using $Ax distortions and a 16-bit channel (like in my title theme for Bentley Bear).

[ColecoFan1981]

https://gatland.tripod.com/vgr.txt

 

Scrolling down to the list of cartridges made by Atari, Super Mario Bros. was indeed planned to be released for the 7800 (see highlighted entry in the attached screen cap). But Nintendo's licensee restrictions (at the time) and later its sour relations with Tengen over Tetris proved to stop this licensing deal (if ever there were one) for what was the hottest pack-in game for the NES dead in its tracks.

 

Still, if it had been released -- what would it have looked like with the 7800's graphical capabilities?

 

~Ben

Edited December 17, 2023 by ColecoFan1981