kevincal Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 a normal person is not going to know that the Jaguar was a 64-bit system based upon the games. If i knew nothing about games and systems, and I played a Jaguar for the first time and EVERY GAME IN THE LIBRARY, i would've thought it was 16-bit. I mean come on. 90% of the games looked as good or worse than SNES games. Though technically speaking the Jag is 64 bit, its a total joke since with all its hardware, it still only had the graphical power to acheive 16 or a little above 16-bit graphics. 893569[/snapback] BS man....I'd put money that you haven't played even half of the Jag's games, let alone the 90% you claim.... In my opinion, the Jag would have been better off just calling itself a 32 bit system (even though it really is 64-bit) because its games at the time were very comparable to the PS and Saturn...Rayman, Doom, AvP, Iron Soldier, Raiden etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory DG Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 its a total joke since with all its hardware, it still only had the graphical power to acheive 16 or a little above 16-bit graphics. You can't do Tempest 2000, Alien vs. Predator, Iron Soldier 1 & 2, BattleSphere Classic & Gold, Cybermorph, Battlemorph, Skyhammer, Space War 2000, Phaze Zero, Missile Command 3D, Towers II, Zero 5, Black Ice/White Noise, Myst, Hover Strike, Highlander, World Tour Racing, Fight for Life, Vid Grid, I-War, White Men Can't Jump, Supercross 3D, Checkered Flag, Aircars, or Club Drive on the Super NES. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Needles Kane Posted July 18, 2005 Author Share Posted July 18, 2005 Me having awful grammar doesn't make the site any better. 893502[/snapback] ...Ok... who said it did? I just received two more emails from the guy, and he's at least agreed to change the Jag page a bit: They gave me permission about 4 years ago, so no doubt he's problably forgotten. I'll e-mail him. I really do like Atari games, I play them all the time. Maybe I am a little harsh on the Jaguar page. -Mark and this one: Hey there, You know what it was, they said I could use them when I was doing the 5200 page. But I e-mailed them anyway, told them I'll put links under all the images and such. It was a while ago (2001 maybe? Can't remember.) I'm updating the Jag page tonight, and I'll rewrite it a little to not be so offensive to Atari fans. Still think that controller is akward though. Thanks for bringing all this to my attention. -Mark It's a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickinwing Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Star Fox on SNES looked better than the 3d games I own, which are Checkerd Flag, I-War, Iron Soldier. Virtua Racing on the Genesis looked better than Checkard Flag. AVP and DOOM, well you had Doom on the SNES and it looks the same, and there's really nothing that special about AVP. Same with Towers II, i have that game and it looks worse than Doom on SNES Lets see, Ultra Vortek, that Val'der Skiing Snowboarding, Atari Karts, DinoDudes, White Men Cant Jump, and every other game I own do not look like 64 bit games, they don't look like PS1 or Saturn Games. They look like Genesis, SNES games. As for 3d games, how can you compare Jags non textured polygons with PS1 and Saturns textured Polygons. You would never see Resident Evil on the Jaguar. And as for the Jag CD that was a joke too. It was worse than Sega CD and barely above NECs TurboDuo. 3do put it to shame and it was supposed to compete. Don't get me wrong, I love my Jag, but in terms of gaming history, it is the second biggest joke in the industry in my opinion, next to the Game.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory DG Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Doom on the SNES and it looks the same, and there's really nothing that special about AVP. Now I know you're insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Hey there, You know what it was, they said I could use them when I was doing the 5200 page. But I e-mailed them anyway, told them I'll put links under all the images and such. It was a while ago (2001 maybe? Can't remember.) I'm updating the Jag page tonight, and I'll rewrite it a little to not be so offensive to Atari fans. Still think that controller is akward though. Thanks for bringing all this to my attention. -Mark It's a start. 893608[/snapback] I did receive an email from Mark yesterday, stating that he got the images from Google's Image Search and didn't know they were from AtariAge. And that he was pretty new to the whole internet thing at the time. He has now formally asked for permission to use the images (the only one he asked about in the past was for the 5200 prototype images I snapped at PhillyClassic). ..Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickinwing Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Doom on the SNES and it looks the same, and there's really nothing that special about AVP. Now I know you're insane. 893675[/snapback] a little yes, but AVP is my all time favorite Jag game. I love it, especially playing it as the marine in the dark and being on the predator ship, walking around and all of sudden you hear "Come On" scary. But as 1st person shooters go, it had nothing special to add other than more than 1 playable character. But to say the Jag had games comparible to Saturn and PS1, now thats truely insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isgoed Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Quote: "But to say the Jag had games comparible to Saturn and PS1, now thats truely insane." What about Rayman, Iron Soldier 2 and Skyhammer? I think those are pretty good games, and real fun to play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Kai Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Doom on the SNES and it looks the same, and there's really nothing that special about AVP. Now I know you're insane. 893675[/snapback] a little yes, but AVP is my all time favorite Jag game. I love it, especially playing it as the marine in the dark and being on the predator ship, walking around and all of sudden you hear "Come On" scary. But as 1st person shooters go, it had nothing special to add other than more than 1 playable character. But to say the Jag had games comparible to Saturn and PS1, now thats truely insane. 893708[/snapback] Rayman? Tempest 2000? Plus...Doom on SNES is nothing anywhere near the quality that the Jaguar version is. Have you actually played the two side by side? Actually, the SNES version has more in common with the 32x edition of Doom, and the 32x version runs better than the SNES cart, but both run horrible next to the Jag version. Framerates are absolutely horrible in the SNES and 32x editions, they are so bad I can only play them for brief 10-15 minute sessions, but the Jaguar version has a nice smooth framerate which doesn't strain the eyes, plus it's a full screen version, something lacking in the other games where you have a big border around the game screen. If you said AVP had bad framerates, I'd believe you, but when you try to say SNES Doom and Jag Doom are virtually identical, I seriously question whether you've even played any of the games you are even trying to talk about in this thread. I smell BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 (edited) Star Fox on SNES looked better than the 3d games I own, which are Checkerd Flag, I-War, Iron Soldier. Except it's on rails and has a very limited environment ... and requires a special chip. Virtua Racing on the Genesis looked better than Checkard Flag. Except with fewer polygons, fewer colors and it required a special chip. Doom on the SNES and it looks the same Dude, when you haven't actually played either side by side, it's best to keep your mouth shut. The statement above gives away this. and there's really nothing that special about AVP. Show me an SNES game like it ... Lets see, Ultra Vortek, that Val'der Skiing Snowboarding, Atari Karts, DinoDudes, White Men Cant Jump, and every other game I own do not look like 64 bit games, they don't look like PS1 or Saturn Games. They look like Genesis, SNES games. LOL. As much as I hate WHITE MEN CAN'T JUMP, show me an SNES and Genesis 3D, 4-player, texture mapped basketball game like it! :-) how can you compare Jags non textured polygons with PS1 and Saturns textured Polygons. You can't. The fact that the PS1 was two years NEWER might have something to do with it. How come the PS1 isn't as good as the Dreamcast technically? Newer technology ... And as for the Jag CD that was a joke too. It was worse than Sega CD and barely above NECs TurboDuo. According to what? Your (obviously extremely ignorant) viewpoint? Edited July 19, 2005 by DracIsBack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Needles Kane Posted July 19, 2005 Author Share Posted July 19, 2005 well you had Doom on the SNES and it looks the same893642[/snapback] This is the second time someone has said that, and it's the second time someone has made a fool of himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy the Atarian Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 (edited) Star Fox on SNES looked better than the 3d games I own, which are Checkerd Flag, I-War, Iron Soldier. 893642[/snapback] Um ok, considering that Star Fox is using far fewer colors and no shading and has a lower polygon count than the above mentioned games, how does it look better? The games you mention all use 16-bit color (which the SNES even with it's SFX chip can't achieve) and have shaded polygons. Virtua Racing on the Genesis looked better than Checkard Flag. AVP and DOOM, well you had Doom on the SNES and it looks the same, and there's really nothing that special about AVP. Same with Towers II, i have that game and it looks worse than Doom on SNES I won't say anything about your absurd comparison of Doom for the Jaguar and SNES . Towers 2 also uses 16-bit color which the SNES could never do and color goes a long way in how the graphics appear. Obviously you're looking at AvP from today's point of view and not from the point of view from 1994. I think this is something that too many people do when it comes to the Jaguar. Lets see, Ultra Vortek, that Val'der Skiing Snowboarding, Atari Karts, DinoDudes, White Men Cant Jump, and every other game I own do not look like 64 bit games, they don't look like PS1 or Saturn Games. They look like Genesis, SNES games. So what is a 64-bit game supposed to look like then? Do Atari 2600 games look like NES games? Since they don't does that mean that the 2600 is not an 8-bit system? I know it will be surprising to hear this but bits don't mean much when it comes to graphics. The Xbox is a 32-bit system and the PS2 a 128 so how come many Xbox titles surpass the graphics quality of PS2 titles? You have to look at all the other specs of the hardware as well as the tools available for the platform before passing judgement on these things. If properly programmed the Jaguar can produce great graphics. But many things hindered proper development of Jaguar games at the time, mainly Atari's own hostility towards development. Take a look at the first Jaguar titles and then take a look at titles like BattleSphere, Iron Soldier 2 and the upcoming Gorf 3D. There's a big difference. As for 3d games, how can you compare Jags non textured polygons with PS1 and Saturns textured Polygons. You would never see Resident Evil on the Jaguar. And as for the Jag CD that was a joke too. It was worse than Sega CD and barely above NECs TurboDuo. 3do put it to shame and it was supposed to compete. I suppose you have never played/seen IS2 or Skyhammer in action then. Of course, the Jaguar wasn't created with textured polygon graphics in mind. Around 1992 when it was in development that concept was still a new thing in graphics. It's strength lies in 2D graphics. Try games like HyperForce, Rayman, Trevor McFur (not a great game in the gameplay dept., but since you seem to mostly care about graphics, you won't find anything like it on the SNES), Native Demo, Soul Star, and Power Drive Rally. Don't get me wrong, I love my Jag, but in terms of gaming history, it is the second biggest joke in the industry in my opinion, next to the Game.com Well that's your opinion and I won't dispute that, I'm just getting tired of these endless debates about 'is it 64-bit or not'. Any developer for the Jag will tell you that it is and simply because the games don't look like N64 games doesn't mean a thing. Eventually it's not going to matter what the games look like anyways as even the PS3 and Xbox 360 will one day in the future end up on thrift store shelves and people won't pick them up because they could produce great graphics but for games they enjoyed on the platform. Edited July 19, 2005 by Shaggy the Atarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrant Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Eventually it's not going to matter what the games look like anyways as even the PS3 and Xbox 360 will one day in the future end up on thrift store shelves and people won't pick them up because they could produce great graphics but for games they enjoyed on the platform. 893982[/snapback] Well, almost, dont forget the 360 has a VLM by the Yak built into it, that should be enough reason for people to pick one up, and counts as great graphics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickinwing Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 and don't you consider that all said games above SUCK ASS. Checkerd Flag. SUCKS, i own it I-War, SUCKS, I own it. I do own Doom and i was speaking in graphic terms. They are very close graphically and that is what i'm talking about, i'm talking about the Jags graphics capabilities. Iron Soldier, good game,, i own it, but doesn't look like nothing the FX chip couldn't handle I see you all are SUPER F*ing ATARI FANBOIS and there's no arguing. But look at the SNES chip structure and then Look at the JAG. If the Jag was sooooo much better, than what the hell. You absolutely cannot say the Jag was on par with PS1 or Saturn, even the first gen games were better than any Jag game released. Its proposterous. I can't believe you guys are such fanbois to say the Jag was as good as PS1 and all the games you are saying had good graphics have horrible gameplay, Checkerd Flag anyone? I'm not going to argue anymore, if there's one thing i Hate its fanbois of any system, but I thought Nintendo fanbois were the worst, i see that now i am wrong. Atari Jag fanbois are the most dilusional group of people i have ever seen in a gaming community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Needles Kane Posted July 19, 2005 Author Share Posted July 19, 2005 Let's try and have one Jag debate not end in a locked thread and fanboy accusations (and the "bitness" argument is off-topic anyway). @kickinwing: Way to troll. *Wild Applause* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickinwing Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 (edited) i'm not the one that started this. Being the first time i've posted in the Jag forum, i've never expected to read what i've read, or even thought there were people out there that thought the Jag, the 3rd worse joke of a system ever, was as good as a PS1 or Saturn. And then the guy argues that Starfox was good because of a special chip, well how many damn chips does the Jaguar need to get better than SNES graphics? I do screen shot after screen shot of SNES games that look better than any Jag. game. and even some Genesis games. Did the Jag have anything that looked as good as Sonic and Knuckles?? NO. Did it have anything that looked as good as Killer Instinct. NO instead it had the horrible Kusami Ninja or whatever and Ultra Vortek, both MK ripoffs and both that sucked horrible and had worse graphics than any MK game on either SNES or Genesis, but yet the almighty Jag. is on par with PS1 and Saturn because it had Rayman and Tempest 2000. AND BTW, here is the list of games I own. Checkerd Flag I-War Iron Soldier Kusami Ninja Ultra Vortek Alien vs. Predator Wolfenstein 3d Doom Val'dier Skiing and Snowboarding (horrible horrible graphics) worse than SNES by far Rayman Tempest 2000 Super Burnout (Super Hangon for Genesis had better graphics) Dino Dudes White Men Can't Jump Towers II Edited July 19, 2005 by kickinwing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesusc Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Welcome to the jag forums, where even the tiniest of silver linings is enough to overshadow the largest of black clouds. (yeah, the game sucks, but it has great music!). You'll soon see that no matter how much thought and fact go into your side of a debate, the rebuttals are always the same. Have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 and don't you consider that all said games above SUCK ASS. In your PERSONAL, SUBJECTIVE, OPINION, WHICH YOU ARE PRESENTING AS FACT NOT OPINION YES. For the record, I agree that many Jaguar games are disappointing, suck or don't showcase the power of the system. That is NOT THE SAME, however, as the Jaguar being "barely above the Super Nintendo in power". You are talking about two different things: the quality of the programmers/length of time spent developing/money invested has a huge IMPACT on the quality of games and output ... as much or more than system capabilities. Iron Soldier, good game,, i own it, but doesn't look like nothing the FX chip couldn't handle Show me any SNES game with the number of polygons, frame rate and texture mapping of IS2. Please ... all are SUPER F*ing ATARI FANBOIS and there's no arguing. I don't mind arguments if you make good ones. But you haven't. What's you've essentially said is, "The Jaguar is barely more powerful than an SNES because I've played a couple of games and they don't impress me". You absolutely cannot say the Jag was on par with PS1 or Saturn Who said that? I agree, it isn't technically on par. It also came out in 1993, while hte PS1 came out in 1995. Why is the Dreamcast more powerful than the PS1? Same logic ... newer technology. even the first gen games were better than any Jag game released. You just mentioned you only have 15 Jaguar games out of the 80 or so that came out. Yet here you are making sweeping generalizations about how all the games suck, even though you've never played them. I like to think I'm pretty objective. When I look at your arguments, I don't see objectivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickinwing Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 (edited) i am having fun with this. I'm very intrigued that there are people that are at this level of fanboism. I can't wait to see what else people say about the Jag. Soon it will be that if it had not died a horrible death it would've surpassed the PS2 and XBOX. Also i'm talking about first party and 3rd party carts, not cd's, not homebrew. There were not 80 first party, 3rd party games for the Jag that I count. I also said Iron Soldier, not Iron Soldier II which is probably the only cart game that can compare to an early Saturn or PS1 game. Also, KevinCal is the one that said that the Jag was comparable to PS1 and Saturn games, even early games, like Ridge Racers looked way better than any Jag game. But again, like you stated that is my opinion, and if you want, i can probably find many articles and reviews from all different type of gaming sites and magazines that would probably agree with my opinions. Edited July 19, 2005 by kickinwing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrant Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Please boys and girls, DONT FEED THE TROLLS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickinwing Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 how am i trolling? Anybody with any gaming sense would know that the Jaguar brought nothing spectacular to the scene, even for that time frame. With systems like the 3do and Sega CD/32x already out. You can say over and over again, "the system had the specs" that doesn't matter, the games are what matters. Even if it was the software developer/programmers fault, anybody with a brain can see that the Jag, for a 64 bit system, was really behind the times. And anybody that knows nothing about gaming is going to see 64 bit and think it would be like the N64 and we all know it wasn't even close to that 64 bit system. If anything the CD system should've had the games to deliver the goods for the system, but it didn't either, and that is the real shame of the Jaguar. The carts were doomed from the get go, but at least the CD system could've had a chance. But we can play the "what if" game all day, the fact still remains that the Jag was one of the worst gaming failures in gaming history. Even the 3DO had more games and more good games despite it's huge price tag at launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lastblade Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 But we can play the "what if" game all day, the fact still remains that the Jag was one of the worst gaming failures in gaming history. Even the 3DO had more games and more good games despite it's huge price tag at launch. 894289[/snapback] I disagree with you on 3DO, the Jaguar had a few great games that will never be matched by the 3DO (and I loved the 3DO way back when). AvP, Tempest 2000, Defender 2000, Battlesphere, Iron Soldier 1&2 and Battlemorph are great games that are unmatched by the 3DO. The 3DO did have some awesome racing games, like Need For Speed & Road Rash, and Super Street Fighter 2 is better than any Jag's fighters/racers. On a cursory glance, 3DO's games do look better than Jag, but for the truly memorable games, the 3DO is lacking. Plus, the 3DO costed almost 3 times as much as the Jaguar at launch, and the controller is atrocious to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isgoed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Kickinwing, you said that you love your Jag, but there aren't many positive words coming out So what is the reason that you still love your Jag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper_Eye Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Check this out... this guy tries to be like Maddox (which is mentioned in the first e-mail): http://hawanja.com/dorks01.htm The problem is that he dosn't come even close to matching Maddox's skill for ripping people apart. His grace with words is not comparable and he misspells a lot. Maddox would tear this guy apart. It is pretty funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flack Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 ... and Cloak and Dagger was not a good movie. Jack Flack disagrees. (Yes, that's where the nick came from.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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