Nintendo patents sanity system

[Dones]

What purpose could this serve?

[+FujiSkunk]

It serves as the latest example of just how ****ed up our patent system really is.

[joeybastard]

Why not patent it? If somebody else wants to incorporate it into their game, they have to pay. Seems like good business to me.

[Zonie]

It serves as the latest example of just how ****ed up our patent system really is.

921719[/snapback]

Soooo... what you're saying is that it is silly to protect one's ideas and intellectual property from being exploited bysomeone who doesn't deserve it?

[maibock]

Seems similar if back in the day, you patented "hit points" or a "health meter". Yeah, you're protecting your content in a business manner, but you're screwing development of games and thus screwing the gamer.

 

I understand patenting hardware, but something just seems wrong about patenting an idea in a game. Sure it's legal and perhaps a shrewd business approach, but I don't see anything good from it..

 

But then again it's Nintendo, so I'm sure we'll have "Psychologist Mario Paper Trail Cart Teen Cookie Cruncher Deluxe Sports Edition" game for the Revolution soon enough..

 

[+FujiSkunk]

It serves as the latest example of just how ****ed up our patent system really is.

921719[/snapback]

Soooo... what you're saying is that it is silly to protect one's ideas and intellectual property from being exploited bysomeone who doesn't deserve it?

921725[/snapback]

 

When it's carried to the extent where companies are patenting every last little detail in something that has no affect on the real world, hoping they can later sue a competitor into oblivion, yes.

 

Something like this, which required real brain power and effort to invent, should be patentable. Something like an extra variable in a video game should not be.

 

And hey, what about prior art?

Edited August 30, 2005 by skunkworx

[joeybastard]

But then again it's Nintendo, so I'm sure we'll have "Psychologist Mario Paper Trail Cart Teen Cookie Cruncher Deluxe Sports Edition" game for the Revolution soon enough..

 

921736[/snapback]

True, but it'll be more fun to play than anything on the other 2 platforms.

[Dones]

It sounds to me like Eternal Darkness. The patent process took longer than the game itself. Did you guys notice the link to the 1995 patent? Click there and you will find something similar to what was used in Hey You! Pikachu (and now Nintendogs).

[pmpddytim]

Actually sounds like a fun twist for a game.

 

As for the patent.........eh, who cares. Make your system just a little different and BANG! your in business. Call if the "Fright" system the more afraid your character gets the harder it is to control, different things occur, etc etc etc........

[JB]

It sounds to me like Eternal Darkness. The patent process took longer than the game itself. Did you guys notice the link to the 1995 patent? Click there and you will find something similar to what was used in Hey You! Pikachu (and now Nintendogs).

921748[/snapback]

Indeed. The patent was filed back in 2000.

 

Did notice evidence that Eternal Darkness was "rolled over" from teh N64, though. They were talking about effects like a quickened heartbeat or monstrous footsteps being tied to the rumble pak.

...

They also listed "lightening" as an auditory hallucination. Why can't people spell lightning right? Or grasp that THUNDER is the auditory component?

 

 

 

It serves as the latest example of just how ****ed up our patent system really is.

921719[/snapback]

Soooo... what you're saying is that it is silly to protect one's ideas and intellectual property from being exploited bysomeone who doesn't deserve it?

921725[/snapback]

 

When it's carried to the extent where companies are patenting every last little detail in something that has no affect on the real world, hoping they can later sue a competitor into oblivion, yes.

 

Something like this, which required real brain power and effort to invent, should be patentable. Something like an extra variable in a video game should not be.

It's not JUST an extra variable.

It's also a whole laundry list of effects that said variable could fire off, the most notable being "focus points" that your character pays more or less attention to, or percieves diffrently, depending on his mental state.

 

The game doesn't just chug along like normal until the character's sanity hits 0, then throw a game over screen at you. As your character loses their grasp on reality, the game gets more and more insane.

...

In fact, at very high levels of craziness, it starts actively messing with the player by throwing out errors about memory card corruption and faking resets to the title screen.

 

That mechanism is what makes it patentable, not that they're tracking an extra variable.

Edited August 30, 2005 by JB

[Famicoman]

Might make an interesting Sims game.

[Emehr]

Damn. Well there goes my paper'n'dice RPG using sanity points that's at least, um, 12 years old. I snoozed. I losed. Didn't think that was something I had to patent for crying out loud . Maybe I'll switch it to 'bladder control' points. When your BCP's hit zero...sploosh! Now don't nobody go patent that ya hear!

 

- Jason

[+FujiSkunk]

That mechanism is what makes it patentable, not that they're tracking an extra variable.

921820[/snapback]

 

I still say it's a mere extra variable in a game, and nowhere near a brainstorm that is worthy of a patent.

 

But then, I'm against all software patents, after seeing what monoliths like Microsoft are planning to do with them. Mosey over to Groklaw some time to see what I'm talking about. That site makes the case much more convincingly than I can.

[uosipa llamxew]

That mechanism is what makes it patentable, not that they're tracking an extra variable.

921820[/snapback]

 

I still say it's a mere extra variable in a game, and nowhere near a brainstorm that is worthy of a patent.

 

921922[/snapback]

 

It doesn't seem much different than those RPGs where you can be cursed or get sick and therefore your character doesn't perform as well. I'm sure if a game designer wanted to, the patent could be easily disregarded; the effect could be easily written off as a side effect from something you ate, touched, injected, or simply extreme fatigue in your character.

 

The entire patent just seems silly... but then, I guess that's why I don't have a career designing video games.

Edited August 30, 2005 by mojofltr

[+remowilliams]

Just wait until Nintendo (and the rest of mankind) finds out I have a patent covering any human interaction with any electronic or electromechanical device. I plan on suing everyone until we are regressed to the stone age.

 

All your money are belong to us!

[JB]

That mechanism is what makes it patentable, not that they're tracking an extra variable.

921820[/snapback]

 

I still say it's a mere extra variable in a game, and nowhere near a brainstorm that is worthy of a patent.

 

But then, I'm against all software patents, after seeing what monoliths like Microsoft are planning to do with them. Mosey over to Groklaw some time to see what I'm talking about. That site makes the case much more convincingly than I can.

921922[/snapback]

I dislike software patents in general due to the abuse generated in large part by incompetent patent officers.

 

Nintendo got a patent for emulation on a low-end computer. Including using a frameskip routine to maintain full speed.

Because, you know, it's not like people haven't been doing it for a decade on PCs.

 

 

More notable is the Frauhoffer MP3 encoding patent. That never should've been granted, as it was an implementation of a freely and publically available compression standard. That one's kind of like making a dictionary and then patenting the english language.

 

 

Both cases are fine examples of patents granted because no one bothered to look for previously existing work.

 

That mechanism is what makes it patentable, not that they're tracking an extra variable.

921820[/snapback]

 

I still say it's a mere extra variable in a game, and nowhere near a brainstorm that is worthy of a patent.

 

921922[/snapback]

 

It doesn't seem much different than those RPGs where you can be cursed or get sick and therefore your character doesn't perform as well.

I don't really consider a weaker attack or worse accuracy in the same level as a passable simulation of insanity.

 

You should read through the entire patent and see the sort of effects they have keyed to it.

Or just play Eternal Darkness... which I should do myself, really.

 

 

I'm sure if a game designer wanted to, the patent could be easily disregarded; the effect could be easily written off as a side effect from something you ate, touched, injected, or simply extreme fatigue in your character.

As soon as they went into court and found the mechanism was due to a variable tracing your character's mental state, and NOT because your character ate a mushroom, they'd be slapped around.

 

The entire patent just seems silly...  but then, I guess that's why I don't have a career designing video games. 

It's one of the few cases I've seen of a reasonable software patent, IMO.

[Hydian]

So they're patenting the insanity system from Call of Cthulu?

[uosipa llamxew]

I don't really consider a weaker attack or worse accuracy in the same level as a passable simulation of insanity.

 

You should read through the entire patent and see the sort of effects they have keyed to it.

Or just play Eternal Darkness... which I should do myself, really.

 

You're right, I didn't read the whole thing (I still haven't) and jumped the gun a bit.

[JB]

So they're patenting the insanity system from Call of Cthulu?

922055[/snapback]

A video game implementation of it, yes. Not a direct rip, as it won't translate directly.

 

There ARE problems with attempting to create said effects in the video game medium, particularly in a direct-control situation(read: not a menu-driven RPG) and transparent to the player.

Eternal Darkness, by most counts, manages to do so rather nicely.

[Zonie]

That mechanism is what makes it patentable, not that they're tracking an extra variable.

921820[/snapback]

 

I still say it's a mere extra variable in a game, and nowhere near a brainstorm that is worthy of a patent.

 

But then, I'm against all software patents, after seeing what monoliths like Microsoft are planning to do with them. Mosey over to Groklaw some time to see what I'm talking about. That site makes the case much more convincingly than I can.

921922[/snapback]

You're obviously NOT an engineer or an inventor.

 

Do you like the intermittant feature on your car's windshield wipers? Thought so. A guy invented it decades ago, and presented it to Ford. They told him to pack sand. They introduced it themselves and paid him nothing. A patent would have prevented this. It took decades, but he finally got somthing for his idea, but nothing near what he deserved.

 

The patent process is what gives the little guy with a good idea a chance to hit it big. As for patent awards to companies, the employees often benefit. (not always, however).

 

Software is just as tangible as a piece of hardware. It took brainpower to come up with an idea, and effort to develop it. that'w worth something.

[cimerians]

They are going to run into trouble with that unless of course nobody cares.

 

The sanity system derives from the Call of Cthulu paper and pencil Role-Playing Game created in 1981 and featured in many of Lovecrafts horror stories in the 1930's etc.

 

http://www.chaosium.com/index.php?section_id=13

 

This feature has been incorporated into video games in the past, most recently Eternal Darkness by Silicon Knights. Its basically another stat regardless of what Nintendo is trying to describe.

 

Its nothing new and its pretty disturbing that they did this. This restricts other game makers (non Nintendo) i.e. Sony and Microsoft from using this which is ridiculous.

 

Its a rather far fetched almost sad effort by Nintendo and equally surprising it exists.

 

It's like giving a patent to health or intelligence or mana (magic points) in a game.

 

I could easily say, "Well, if you run out of Mana the game will definitely play differently".

 

Nintendo simply lowers its bar for me every day, even though I own all their systems.

[JB]

They are going to run into trouble with that unless of course nobody cares.

 

The sanity system derives from the Call of Cthulu paper and pencil Role-Playing Game created in 1981 and featured in many of Lovecrafts horror stories in the 1930's etc.

 

http://www.chaosium.com/index.php?section_id=13

 

This feature has been incorporated into video games in the past, most recently Eternal Darkness by Silicon Knights. Its basically another stat regardless of what Nintendo is trying to describe.

I think Eternal Darkness is what they got the patent for, actually.

But if you notice... they filed the patent back in 2000. It's not new.

 

And the patent isn't just for a stat named "sanity."

The entire mechanism for dealing with it is the subject of the patent.

 

 

IF Call of Cthulu had ever had a videogame, you might have a point.

They got a SOFTWARE PATENT. Call of Cthulu is not software. And as I said, it's system won't directly translate to a video game anyways.

 

Its nothing new and its pretty disturbing that they did this.

I've never seen another video game do it besides Eternal Darkness.

 

This restricts other game makers (non Nintendo) i.e. Sony and Microsoft from using this which is ridiculous.

That's the POINT of patents.

You get exclusive use of an innovative idea for ... I think 7 years. Or royalities from anyone you license it to.

 

Prior art would prove lack of innovation, but as I said, I've yet to see another video game with a sanity system.

 

It's like giving a patent to health or intelligence or mana (magic points) in a game.

 

I could easily say, "Well, if you run out of Mana the game will definitely play differently".

And if someone set up a system where as your HP or MP lowered hte game would start to physically look, sound, and react diffrently, you'd have a valid comparison.

...

I'd actually like to see that. As your HP gets lower, the character gets more sluggish, less likely to launch an attack in a prompt manner, more likely to miss, and as you approach critical, a tunnel vision effect kicks in.

Not near as elaborate as the Eternal Darkness setup, but fatigue is a far more straightforward concept than insanity.

[+FujiSkunk]

You're obviously NOT an engineer or an inventor. 

 

Don't go making assumptions, and seriously, have a look at the articles on Groklaw that I mentioned above. There are many, many software engineers that are clamoring for patent reform and the abolishment of software patents even more loudly than I am. Why? The reasons are many. Read about submarine patents here and here. Read about how some law experts are predicting that companies will use patents to attack their competitors here. Read about all kinds of patent abuse and craziness in these articles. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

I do believe that the patent system can be used for good. If you'd read all my comments, you'd have noticed this link about an invention that I believe is worthy of being patented. But I also passionately believe that software patents are going to be nothing but a tool of big corporations, used only to squelch competition and innovation.

 

The patent process is what gives the little guy with a good idea a chance to hit it big.

 

The exact opposite is going to be true if the current trends continue.

 

Software is just as tangible as a piece of hardware.  It took brainpower to come up with an idea, and effort to develop it. that'w worth something.

922112[/snapback]

 

I don't dispute that (mostly). I am all for protecting one's works, and I feel that copyright law is more than sufficient for that. But when we're getting to the point where someone can dream up a new life meter in a game, and take out a patent that allows him to sue every other company that has an even remotely similar idea in another game, something is drastically wrong. Imagine Taito suing Namco over Galaxian. Imagine Capcom suing Midway over Mortal Kombat. Imagine the innovative and ground-breaking games we would have had in such an atmosphere where everybody was hesitant to release anything for fear of being taken to court over it.

Edited August 31, 2005 by skunkworx

[JB]

But when we're getting to the point where someone can dream up a new life meter in a game, and take out a patent that allows him to sue every other company that has an even remotely similar idea in another game, something is drastically wrong. 

Imagine a world where people can oversimplify a concept to absurdity to make a totally ridiculous claim sound valid!

[cimerians]

I understand your points JB and your right about no games flip out and take you back a screen when your green sanity meter maxes out. So they are safe to do this eh? Thats fine, I'm not sure what they are really trying to cash in on.

 

BUT what I hope to express is that I think its a lame ass move by Nintendo. The whole thing is just ridiculous.

 

I'm not too hot on them lately so I'm a little anti-Nintendo on this subject.

 

Oh and about past video games, yes none have the green meter I described above which causes a predetermined cool effect (sometimes annoying effect) but there's been a lot of games that featured some form of a sanity which worked differently than E.D. In other words, like in Alone in the Dark, if you read a specific book in the House your character would lose his sanity, scream, and die instantly. The Suffering a more modern title, has a sanity like feature. Metal Gear Solid and Metal Gear Solid 2 messes with your head in more ways than one.

 

To me its just something that prohibits creativity to some degree and I am all against that. Whether its a just a little bit or lot, I'm against it.

 

Oh well.. nuff' said.

Edited August 31, 2005 by cimerians