Ladybug - 2600

[NovaXpress]

Thank you for this game. Johnnywc is one of my new idols.

 

Back to legalities for a second, I've been talking with a very well-known programmer from the classic days and she says that the big companies are now scambling to lock down the rights to every classic game they can. It appears, however, that many games truly have slipped into legal oblivion. No one was thinking of future revenues back during the crash, so a lot of paperwork was lost. We can't find any evidence that the old Universal games are owned by anyone, so this might indeed be a free ride. I hope to soon be able to confirm that a couple other 80s arcade titles are up for grabs as well.

 

Oh, and I got a sneak preview of an upcoming classic release that we've been asking about for years. My trigger finger is already itching.

Edited February 3, 2006 by NovaXpress

[SeaGtGruff]

Second, the flickering when the ladybug overlaps another bug's scan lines makes both of them much darker (which is the nature of the flicker beast, of course). I wonder if making the colors brighter on those scan lines would help, since flickered colors get combined? That is, on scan lines where there's no flickering, just use the normal colors. But on scan lines where flickering is needed, if the colors are made brighter, then flickering them against the black background might result in a less noticeable loss of color, like this:

 

Normal scan line (no flickering):

Frame 1: Ladybug color = $44 (or whatever).

Frame 2: Ladybug color = $44 (or whatever).

Combined result: color = $44.

 

Scan line with flickering:

Frame 1: Ladybug color = $48 (i.e., twice as bright as normal).

Frame 2: color = $00 (background).

Combined result: color = $44? (not really, since hue 4 and hue 0 doesn't give hue 4; but lum 0 and lum 8 = lum 4?).

 

I don't know if anyone's ever tried something like that, but it seems like it might possibly help.

1011861[/snapback]

 

I did a quick test of this in batari BASIC, and it does help, although of course the flickered red ends up having a grayish washed-out look. Also, the brighter color had to be about 3 times brighter than the normal color to get roughly the same effective luminance-- at least, using an emulator and an LCD monitor. I haven't tried my test on a TV yet, but the TV's phosphorescent effect might help.

 

So, if it's possible to work that sort of color change into the kernel, on the scan lines where flickering must be used, it would be worth a try.

 

Michael Rideout

[Cybergoth]

So, if it's possible to work that sort of color change into the kernel, on the scan lines where flickering must be used, it would be worth a try.

 

Ok, it helps the color - but wouldn't the flicker itself become a lot more obvious?

[panamajoe]

awesome! ladybug is looking great already, i´m really excited about this release.

 

at the moment control is a bit to tight, it should be easier to use the doors and move around corners...

 

but anyway: it really looks fantastic, keep up that good work!

[+Nathan Strum]

Oh, and I got a sneak preview of an upcoming classic release that we've been asking about for years. My trigger finger is already itching.

 

That wouldn't be a certain Ms. "G" would it?

[NovaXpress]

You got it! Ms. Gravitar!

 

I can't wait, how about you?

[+johnnywc]

Hi! Thanks for the feedback...

 

This looks great! I have only two gripes:

 

First, it's hard to turn; you have to be lined up precisely right. Even if you think you're lined up just right, you might still be a tad off. Maybe you could add a small fudge factor, like if you're trying to turn, and are within a color clock either way, then you will automatically line up as needed so you can turn (if that makes sense).

Yes - that makes sense. One thing to note is that I made turning much easier by allowing you to press diagnol prior to getting to an intersection to make your next move. For example, if you're moving up and want to take the next left, you should press up and to the left (diagnol) before you get to the intersection. When you reach the intersection, your ladybug will turn left (no need to line things up). This of course works in all directions. I can easily move around the maze, opening doors with no mistakes, but if people still think it's too difficult I will work on implementing the "fudge factor" as you described.

 

Second, the flickering when the ladybug overlaps another bug's scan lines makes both of them much darker (which is the nature of the flicker beast, of course). I wonder if making the colors brighter on those scan lines would help, since flickered colors get combined? That is, on scan lines where there's no flickering, just use the normal colors. But on scan lines where flickering is needed, if the colors are made brighter, then flickering them against the black background might result in a less noticeable loss of color, like this:

 

Normal scan line (no flickering):

Frame 1: Ladybug color = $44 (or whatever).

Frame 2: Ladybug color = $44 (or whatever).

Combined result: color = $44.

 

Scan line with flickering:

Frame 1: Ladybug color = $48 (i.e., twice as bright as normal).

Frame 2: color = $00 (background).

Combined result: color = $44? (not really, since hue 4 and hue 0 doesn't give hue 4; but lum 0 and lum 8 = lum 4?).

 

I don't know if anyone's ever tried something like that, but it seems like it might possibly help.

Yes - you are correct. The phospherent effect combines the black with the original color, making them appear darker when flickering. The logic you described would probably reduce this effect; I'm not sure if I'll have the kernel time or RAM to implement this scheme. One thing to note is that there is still a way to go with the intelligent flicker (for example, I'm only using P1 to display letters/hearts). Plus, the nature of the game has only 1 bug active to start, and as more get added the player most likely would have collected hearts/letters which will free up P1. Hopefully when things are done there won't be too much flicker to worry about.

 

Thanks again for the feedback!!

Edited February 3, 2006 by johnnywc

[Vic George 2K3]

You got the rotating doors working, even if they're rotating symmetrically with the ones on the other side of the board. That's a good start.

[+johnnywc]

You got the rotating doors working, even if they're rotating symmetrically with the ones on the other side of the board.  That's a good start.

1012368[/snapback]

Thanks! Unfortunately, due to memory limitations the doors will always rotate symmetrically. Just not enough room to store all the door combinations, plus half of the graphics you see wouldn't be possible with an asymmetrical background.

[NovaXpress]

The parallel doors don't detract in any way whatsoever. Beautiful.

[SeaGtGruff]

So, if it's possible to work that sort of color change into the kernel, on the scan lines where flickering must be used, it would be worth a try.

 

Ok, it helps the color - but wouldn't the flicker itself become a lot more obvious?

1011909[/snapback]

 

I still need to try it on a TV with my 7800, but when I tried it on an LCD monitor with the Stella emulator (with both the monitor and Stella set to 60 Hz), the flickering didn't seem to be any worse. I know from experience that flickering is usually more noticeable when switching between two luminances that are farther apart (e.g., lum $0 and lum $E). But then again, $4C isn't as bright as $0E, due to the difference in the hues.

 

I thought about trying to take a digital photograph of my TV screen, with my 7800 running a demo to show the difference, but I'm not sure how I could capture the blending effect of the flickering-- unless I make a short video capture? Anyone have any ideas? If I were using a film camera, I could just make sure that the shutter stays open long enough to get both frames so the blending can be seen. Is something similar possible with digital cameras? (I'm not an experienced digital camera user-- in fact, I only just bought a digital camera tonight after work!)

 

Michael Rideout

[supercat]

If I were using a film camera, I could just make sure that the shutter stays open long enough to get both frames so the blending can be seen. Is something similar possible with digital cameras? (I'm not an experienced digital camera user-- in fact, I only just bought a digital camera tonight after work!)

1012431[/snapback]

 

I would expect that a digital camera photographing a TV screen in a dark room would use a fairly long exposure. Turn down the TV brightness if you need to make it longer. Biggest difficulty will be avoiding having it appear washed out since the camera may try to turn the black background into gray.

[SeaGtGruff]

Hi!  Thanks for the feedback...

 

This looks great! I have only two gripes:

 

First, it's hard to turn; you have to be lined up precisely right. Even if you think you're lined up just right, you might still be a tad off. Maybe you could add a small fudge factor, like if you're trying to turn, and are within a color clock either way, then you will automatically line up as needed so you can turn (if that makes sense).

Yes - that makes sense. One thing to note is that I made turning much easier by allowing you to press diagnol prior to getting to an intersection to make your next move. For example, if you're moving up and want to take the next left, you should press up and to the left (diagnol) before you get to the intersection. When you reach the intersection, your ladybug will turn left (no need to line things up). This of course works in all directions. I can easily move around the maze, opening doors with no mistakes, but if people still think it's too difficult I will work on implementing the "fudge factor" as you described.

1012014[/snapback]

 

Yes, I tried doing the diagonal move to turn more easily, and it did help a lot, but it was still kind of tricky to turn at times, especially when doing a "360" in certain areas of the maze. I figured that turning corners would get easier with practice, but in my opinion, anything you can do to make it easier for the player to move around will improve his or her enjoyment of the game. It's aggravating to get a game that you were really looking forward to, only to discover that moving around is difficult for one reason or other. Also, when movement is more difficult to do, it's my experience that I end up pushing harder on the joystick, which can shorten the lifespan of the joystick.

 

So with a game that's as great-looking as Ladybug is, you want to do anything you can to keep the gamer's experience enjoyable (yet keeping the game challenging, of course).

 

Michael Rideout

[+MrFish]

Hi!  Thanks for the feedback...

 

This looks great! I have only two gripes:

 

First, it's hard to turn; you have to be lined up precisely right. Even if you think you're lined up just right, you might still be a tad off. Maybe you could add a small fudge factor, like if you're trying to turn, and are within a color clock either way, then you will automatically line up as needed so you can turn (if that makes sense).

Yes - that makes sense. One thing to note is that I made turning much easier by allowing you to press diagnol prior to getting to an intersection to make your next move. For example, if you're moving up and want to take the next left, you should press up and to the left (diagnol) before you get to the intersection. When you reach the intersection, your ladybug will turn left (no need to line things up). This of course works in all directions. I can easily move around the maze, opening doors with no mistakes, but if people still think it's too difficult I will work on implementing the "fudge factor" as you described.

1012014[/snapback]

 

Yes, I tried doing the diagonal move to turn more easily, and it did help a lot, but it was still kind of tricky to turn at times, especially when doing a "360" in certain areas of the maze. I figured that turning corners would get easier with practice, but in my opinion, anything you can do to make it easier for the player to move around will improve his or her enjoyment of the game. It's aggravating to get a game that you were really looking forward to, only to discover that moving around is difficult for one reason or other. Also, when movement is more difficult to do, it's my experience that I end up pushing harder on the joystick, which can shorten the lifespan of the joystick.

 

So with a game that's as great-looking as Ladybug is, you want to do anything you can to keep the gamer's experience enjoyable (yet keeping the game challenging, of course).

 

Michael Rideout

1012454[/snapback]

 

Try the original game in MAME and you can see how this was handled. You can turn down a corridor once you get within a certain distance from dead center. The Coleco version is similar.

[ZylonBane]

Jesus, Fish. Trim the quotes a bit, would ya?

[+johnnywc]

So with a game that's as great-looking as Ladybug is, you want to do anything you can to keep the gamer's experience enjoyable (yet keeping the game challenging, of course).

 

Thanks for the feedback - I'm implementing the 'nudge factor' right now...

[Cybergoth]

I think it should be rather simple to implement: Just keep moving into the current direction, until it's possible to move in the desired. If the player stops, set current direction to zero, so that the bug can only start again into possible directions. For diagonals start/move into the possible direction, assuming the player wants to turn at soon as possible.

[+MrFish]

ZylonBane said:

Jesus, Fish. Trim the quotes a bit, would ya?

 

You're right, that was a pretty large quote. I think we should do whatever we can to help conserve bandwidth these days.

 

With this in mind, I've included a suggestion you might consider for "trimming" your avatar. Just use the remaining piece for fully-optimized posting.

 

[+SpiceWare]

I tried it in Stella first and found the background flicker to be annoying. Loaded into my Krok Cart and found the effect to work quite well. Impressive work so far

[NovaXpress]

I hope that diagonal movement isn't the solution. Games like this are meant for a 4-way joystick.

[+johnnywc]

I tried it in Stella first and found the background flicker to be annoying.  Loaded into my Krok Cart and found the effect to work quite well. Impressive work so far 

1012694[/snapback]

Agreed - this only looks good on a real tv or with the phospherent effect turned on for an emulator (I think they just added this to stella 2.1). In z26 the flag is -f77.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

Edited February 5, 2006 by johnnywc

[+johnnywc]

Hi!

 

I hope that diagonal movement isn't the solution. Games like this are meant for a 4-way joystick.

1012770[/snapback]

 

So with a game that's as great-looking as Ladybug is, you want to do anything you can to keep the gamer's experience enjoyable (yet keeping the game challenging, of course).

 

Thanks for the feedback - I'm implementing the 'nudge factor' right now...

1012630[/snapback]

 

Almost done...

[sandmountainslim]

Good job John,

I hope you are planning to market this on cart thru the AA store when finished

[+Nathan Strum]

Agreed - this only looks good on a real tv or with the phospherent effect turned on for an emulator (I think they just added this to stella 2.1).  In z26 the flag is -f77.

 

The phosphor effect in Stella 2.1 makes a considerable difference. I'd love to see this on a real 2600, but I don't have my Krokodile Cart yet.

 

I've always thought most flickering was far more acceptable on a real TV than with emulators (except Pac-Man, which is awful everywhere). I think it's kind of unfair to judge a 2600 game based on how it looks in an emulator. After all, the ultimate goal is for it to exist on a cart, and be played on real hardware. Not on a PC.

 

And, as John mentioned earlier, he hasn't even implemented intelligent flicker yet.

[+stephena]

Agreed - this only looks good on a real tv or with the phospherent effect turned on for an emulator (I think they just added this to stella 2.1).  In z26 the flag is -f77.

 

The phosphor effect in Stella 2.1 makes a considerable difference. I'd love to see this on a real 2600, but I don't have my Krokodile Cart yet.

Just an FYI; the phosphor effect for Stella can be toggled from the commandline with '-pp yes' or in-game with the 'Alt p' key combo.