New video-card for 8-bit atari...

[DamageX]

Upgrading the A8 might not serve a practical purpose but it's still interesting to see new and different hardware projects. I might buy something like this if the price is right.

 

I agree that a 65816 would complement this nicely. Just think how long it would take to load 500KB of graphics... quite a while even with fast SIO or certain harddisk interfaces. I wonder if there will be any news regarding 65816 boards soon.

[drac030]

The sprites still have to get loaded and manipulated somehow.

 

I still don't see the problem - loading even the full VB memory (which is not required in every case, you can use a fraction of its capacity if convenient) will still take probably much less time than "depacking" done by some games and demos before they start.

 

As for "manipulation", data loaded once is manipulated by the board. You only tell it what to do.

 

And BTW. using 65C816 won't make the actual board load any faster - the board's registers are in the I/O area.

Edited March 6, 2006 by drac030

[Jetboot Jack]

Cor Blimey!

 

How VERY cool and exciting.

 

Ignore the luddites and roll on the availability of this board!!!!

 

sTeVE

[Mathy]

Howdy folks

 

I like this project so much, I already put the pictures and the english description on my site. If anybody has more information, please contact me and I'll see if I can put it on my site.

 

For those who thing that the Atari can't receive data fast enough: You obviously have never tried my CD/DVD-reader software (still in beta-version, but available on my site). ISO 9660 (used on CD's and most DVD's) uses 2048 byte sectors. And one sector is read faster that you can blink your eyes. (when the software says "Reading data" it in fact has already loaded in 2MB)

 

CU Mathy

 

Go to Mathy's Webpage

[Mathy]

Howdy folks

 

I just found this out:

 

6502 accesses video RAM through IO at $d600 page. But whole display and bit-block transfer operations are independent of CPU and 6502 only have to configure start addresses, x and y position, x and y size of block... then 6502 starts operation and simply wait for completion. .... When blt is in progress you can configure device for next blt or do something else you want to ... You can do bit-block transfers or simply fill memory this automated way. You can alter video memory directly via IO too, and the engine helps you altering destination address in way you selected after each written byte. This IO transfer is needed for sprite data - transfer from main memory to video board and for color-map changing.

Tomasz Piórek

 

That means it uses the same area of memory as PBI devices like the BlackBox.

 

CU Mathy

 

PS anybody have Tomasz emailaddress?

[miker]

$d600 page can be changed into any other $dx00 page. This page is used only for now until Tomasz finishes his project.

 

Btw. here in Poland $d600 page is used rather for COVOX.

[MEtalGuy66]

$d600 page can be changed into any other $dx00 page. This page is used only for now until Tomasz finishes his project.

 

Btw. here in Poland $d600 page is used rather for COVOX.

1029593[/snapback]

 

Yeah the board itself, looks like a great design to me.

 

Anyone who thinks any differently probably owns an ST and is just jealous. hahah.

 

AS for those of you that think a 65816 would be a requirement to make this upgrade "useable", I really dont see the point. Yes, the '816 is faster, but everything in the atari is still going over an 8-bit data bus, and even though the '816 can be clocked asynchrounous to the atari (faster cpu speeds,) the system clock (and thus bus speed) has to remain the same as "factory" no matter what. Now as far as calculating vector graphics or 3d applications in reatime, I could see it. But just for loading pictures into graphics memory, I fail to see your point. Also, just because it happens to have plenty of "graphics memeory" doesnt mean you have to use it all in any given application. Just the addition of more hardware sprites, and more colors per sprite alone, opens up a whole new world of possibilities for some really awesome "Arcade quality" (Or better) games. ANd seeing the amount of decent games comming from Poland in recent years, Id say it would probably get plenty of support..

 

I say, bring it on!

[drac030]

That means it uses the same area of memory as PBI devices like the BlackBox.      

 

This means that BlackBox uses the wrong page PBI device registers should reside on $D100.

[danwinslow]

As I said, I would sure be buying several of these and writing new stuff for them. I hope they wind up for sale.

[Mathy]

Howdy Drac030

 

That means it uses the same area of memory as PBI devices like the BlackBox.      

This means that BlackBox uses the wrong page PBI device registers should reside on $D100.

Sorry, but part of the parallelbus device's code/memory should be switched into locations $d6xx. $d1xx is for other stuff used by parallelbus devices.

 

CU Mathy

 

PS I really do think the Video Board XE has great potential. That's why I put information about it on my site. But I really hope (understatement of the year) that Tomasz will move it to a better address range. Man, I've dreamed of such a device for years. I really hope my dreams won't turn into nightmares because of this address (range).

 

PPS Will the Video Board XE do text?

Edited March 8, 2006 by Mathy

[danwinslow]

Well, text is just bitmaps too, so I would imagine you could certainly 'do' your own text, whether or not there are inbuilt text routines.

[DamageX]

AS for those of you that think a 65816 would be a requirement to make this upgrade "useable", I really dont see the point.

You're right, I wouldn't say it is a requirement. Indeed, I think the video card is exciting as it is. But you have to admit that the '816 would be nice also.

 

For loading graphics and the like, you should consider that the tightest loop for copying memory on the 6502 is at least 15 cycles right? Or if you fill an area of memory with a series of LDA/STA instructions you can get it down to 6-8 cycles per byte... but still there is room for improvement even with the same 1.79MHz bus.

[drac030]

Sorry, but part of the parallelbus device's code/memory should be switched into locations $d6xx.  $d1xx is for other stuff used by parallelbus devices.

 

As I understand the Atari documentation, there is no clear definition for $d600/$d700, but it can be understood from various drafts that these pages are NOT to be used by PBI devices, EXCEPT for just one: the 1090 expansion box.

 

At the other hand, the definition for $d100 - a large part of it, $d100-$d1af - is completely clear: the I/O registers of PBI devices should be decoded there. There is even some support on the external bus for that - namely the D1xx signal, which facilitates register addressing at the device's side of affairs. There is no such signal for $d6/$d7. So a floppy/harddisk/printer interface has no point in using anything except $d100.

 

But I really hope (understatement of the year) that Tomasz will move it to a better address range.

 

This has been suggested to him few days ago. Alternative locations proposed are: $d020-$d03f, $d700-$d71f or some other location on page $d6 (maybe the upper half of it or something). The first one would be the best IMHO.

 

PPS Will the Video Board XE do text?

 

ANTIC does.

Edited March 8, 2006 by drac030

[+warerat]

Sorry, but part of the parallelbus device's code/memory should be switched into locations $d6xx.  $d1xx is for other stuff used by parallelbus devices.

 

As I understand the Atari documentation, there is no clear definition for $d600/$d700, but it can be understood from various drafts that these pages are NOT to be used by PBI devices, EXCEPT for just one: the 1090 expansion box.

 

At the other hand, the definition for $d100 - a large part of it, $d100-$d1af - is completely clear: the I/O registers of PBI devices should be decoded there. There is even some support on the external bus for that - namely the D1xx signal, which facilitates register addressing at the device's side of affairs. There is no such signal for $d6/$d7. So a floppy/harddisk/printer interface has no point in using anything except $d100.

 

But I really hope (understatement of the year) that Tomasz will move it to a better address range.

 

This has been suggested to him few days ago. Alternative locations proposed are: $d020-$d03f, $d700-$d71f or some other location on page $d6 (maybe the upper half of it or something). The first one would be the best IMHO.

 

PPS Will the Video Board XE do text?

 

ANTIC does.

1029817[/snapback]

 

I like the idea of mapping it in the GTIA range, keeps the video registers together.

 

The 800 has the $D6XX select on the third memory slot.

[Gunstar]

$d600 page can be changed into any other $dx00 page. This page is used only for now until Tomasz finishes his project.

 

Btw. here in Poland $d600 page is used rather for COVOX.

1029593[/snapback]

 

Yeah the board itself, looks like a great design to me.

 

Anyone who thinks any differently probably owns an ST and is just jealous. hahah.

 

AS for those of you that think a 65816 would be a requirement to make this upgrade "useable", I really dont see the point. Yes, the '816 is faster, but everything in the atari is still going over an 8-bit data bus, and even though the '816 can be clocked asynchrounous to the atari (faster cpu speeds,) the system clock (and thus bus speed) has to remain the same as "factory" no matter what. Now as far as calculating vector graphics or 3d applications in reatime, I could see it. But just for loading pictures into graphics memory, I fail to see your point. Also, just because it happens to have plenty of "graphics memeory" doesnt mean you have to use it all in any given application. Just the addition of more hardware sprites, and more colors per sprite alone, opens up a whole new world of possibilities for some really awesome "Arcade quality" (Or better) games. ANd seeing the amount of decent games comming from Poland in recent years, Id say it would probably get plenty of support..

 

I say, bring it on!

1029598[/snapback]

I agree, for all the reasons you stated, It's a big upgrade with more than plenty to offer already. Though I'm certainly not against the possibility of the 65816 either. If there was support for it. It would be nice for some real-time 3D graphics if someoen made the software for it. but I think what's there is plenty of upgrade for the developers and users. The 8-bit still suprises me with what it can do, and I imagine there would be plenty of room for improvement in software with the video board as-is.

[Shawn Jefferson]

This is all very cool stuff, but I'm kinda against putting non 8-bit era graphics and sound technology into the A8. If better hardware was really the issue, the ST and Amiga are already available.

 

I agree it would be nicer to see an upgrade that puts another 4 PMG objects into the system to play with, or the dual antic upgrade that was talked about by analmux last year.

 

If I wanted to program for a system with better graphics I would go back to programming on the PC.

 

Of course, that being said, I would probably buy one if it was released and was priced right.

Edited March 8, 2006 by Shawn Jefferson

[drac030]

I agree it would be nicer to see an upgrade that puts another 4 PMG objects into the system to play with, or the dual antic upgrade that was talked about by analmux last year.

 

If I wanted to program for a system with better graphics I would go back to programming on the PC.

1029918[/snapback]

 

*Sigh* So what you wanted the dual ANTIC for?

 

Actually, the VBXE doesn't prevent anyone from using the old GTIA - so I really don't see your point here.

[analmux]

I like the idea of mapping it in the GTIA range, keeps the video registers together.

 

The 800 has the $D6XX select on the third memory slot.

1029862[/snapback]

 

me too....then you don't have to solder extra wires internally between the 74-138 IC and the expansion board: so it should be the easiest solution.

 

$D0XX selectsignal is already mapped to the socket of the GTIA chip, where the board is to be plugged in

[Cybernoid]

I like the idea of this board just for the RGB output... maybe now we can have a good RGB monitor port. This opens up a better terminal program... maybe a full color ANSI one...

[Shawn Jefferson]

*Sigh* So what you wanted the dual ANTIC for?

 

My point, vague as it might be, is that the dual antic upgrade isn't really adding anything new to the system, but just using the same technology that the 8-bit was shipped with in a different way. This was just a gut reaction by myself, since I also really like the IDE interfaces that have been created for the 8-bit and these certainly aren't 80s era technology.

 

Reading more about this upgrade, I think it could be something worthwhile for this hobby of ours. After all, I have all sorts of modern gizmos attached to my Atari already. APE, SIO2PC, Internet telnet R: modem, Flash cartridges, Flash OS upgrades, IDE drives, CF-2-IDE adapters, etc..

[Sikor]

*Sigh* So what you wanted the dual ANTIC for?

 

My point, vague as it might be, is that the dual antic upgrade isn't really adding anything new to the system, but just using the same technology that the 8-bit was shipped with in a different way.

But in this is one problem: how many new ANTIC chips you can buy today? You must destroy one Atari to rebuild other, so...? Sorry, for me better way are using modern components - more Ataris will be live...

[Gunstar]

*Sigh* So what you wanted the dual ANTIC for?

 

My point, vague as it might be, is that the dual antic upgrade isn't really adding anything new to the system, but just using the same technology that the 8-bit was shipped with in a different way.

But in this is one problem: how many new ANTIC chips you can buy today? You must destroy one Atari to rebuild other, so...? Sorry, for me better way are using modern components - more Ataris will be live...

1030555[/snapback]

 

Not true! BOTH Best Electronics AND B&C carry Antic chips that aren't from destroying other Atari's, they are REAL REPLACEMENT parts bought from Atari. I'm sure they aren't the only ones to carry them either, but if they are, they both seem to have plenty. Obviously you need to pick yourself up the Best Rev. 10 catalog, the greatest electronic (and Atari) catalog in the world!

[Gunstar]

*Sigh* So what you wanted the dual ANTIC for?

 

My point, vague as it might be, is that the dual antic upgrade isn't really adding anything new to the system, but just using the same technology that the 8-bit was shipped with in a different way. This was just a gut reaction by myself, since I also really like the IDE interfaces that have been created for the 8-bit and these certainly aren't 80s era technology.

 

Reading more about this upgrade, I think it could be something worthwhile for this hobby of ours. After all, I have all sorts of modern gizmos attached to my Atari already. APE, SIO2PC, Internet telnet R: modem, Flash cartridges, Flash OS upgrades, IDE drives, CF-2-IDE adapters, etc..

1030543[/snapback]

I look at 8-bit upgrades like this: This video board and the dual Antic&Pokey chips, and 65816 chip as natural progress in the 8-bit line (not to mention the myrad of 3rd party add-ons made for the 8/16-bit computers including all brands). If it had been continued like the Apple II series (Apple IIGS) or as the ST series progressed through the years (the first ST's had mono sound, bu wow! the STE's have stereo) adding new graphic modes (TT&Falcon), etc. IF Atari had continued the 8-bit line, upgrades similiar to these surely would have made it to our 8-bits. So why can't we do it on our own? I no longer have a 130XE, I now have the next in the "series" the 320XE! Which offers 256K of extended ram (as well as the 64k base memory) and dual Pokey stereo sound! So what if the IDE upgrades aren't "80's" it's not like the 8-bit s didn't have HD capabilities in the 80's, like the SupraDrives, ICD Multi I/O and CSS's Black box. The IDE adapters/cartridges do the same thing as these "80's" products; they let you attach a harddrive! Oh, and by the way, the SIO2PC IS from the 80's; it was first invented in '89! I see all the nw stuff coming out for the 8-bit as just more third-party add-ons, it's still my 8-bit Atari, it's jsut been expanded like people do to computers all the time! What about if you add a new 64-bit 512MB(or more) graphic card to your PC? Is it now no longer a "PC" becuase it has hardware upgrades in it that are new to the system? Why should are 8-bits be considered any differently?

Edited March 9, 2006 by Gunstar

[+warerat]

*Sigh* So what you wanted the dual ANTIC for?

 

My point, vague as it might be, is that the dual antic upgrade isn't really adding anything new to the system, but just using the same technology that the 8-bit was shipped with in a different way.

But in this is one problem: how many new ANTIC chips you can buy today? You must destroy one Atari to rebuild other, so...? Sorry, for me better way are using modern components - more Ataris will be live...

1030555[/snapback]

 

Not true! BOTH Best Electronics AND B&C carry Antic chips that aren't from destroying other Atari's, they are REAL REPLACEMENT parts bought from Atari. I'm sure they aren't the only ones to carry them either, but if they are, they both seem to have plenty. Obviously you need to pick yourself up the Best Rev. 10 catalog, the greatest electronic (and Atari) catalog in the world!

1030626[/snapback]

 

 

I've always wondered exactly how many GTIAs/ANTICs/POKEYs are left. 100s? 1000s? 10000s? Think how many have ended up in landfills. Someone has a VHDL model of FREDDIE, and the equations for the MMU and EMMU are out there. I just worry about these three core chips.

 

I believe there's a VHDL model of POKEY, see the Asteroids game on www.fpgaarcade, the code looks about 90% complete (missing keyboard, serial port). It would be neat to make a quad POKEY and have a single chip solution.

[Gunstar]

*Sigh* So what you wanted the dual ANTIC for?

 

My point, vague as it might be, is that the dual antic upgrade isn't really adding anything new to the system, but just using the same technology that the 8-bit was shipped with in a different way.

But in this is one problem: how many new ANTIC chips you can buy today? You must destroy one Atari to rebuild other, so...? Sorry, for me better way are using modern components - more Ataris will be live...

1030555[/snapback]

 

Not true! BOTH Best Electronics AND B&C carry Antic chips that aren't from destroying other Atari's, they are REAL REPLACEMENT parts bought from Atari. I'm sure they aren't the only ones to carry them either, but if they are, they both seem to have plenty. Obviously you need to pick yourself up the Best Rev. 10 catalog, the greatest electronic (and Atari) catalog in the world!

1030626[/snapback]

 

 

I've always wondered exactly how many GTIAs/ANTICs/POKEYs are left. 100s? 1000s? 10000s? Think how many have ended up in landfills. Someone has a VHDL model of FREDDIE, and the equations for the MMU and EMMU are out there. I just worry about these three core chips.

 

I believe there's a VHDL model of POKEY, see the Asteroids game on www.fpgaarcade, the code looks about 90% complete (missing keyboard, serial port). It would be neat to make a quad POKEY and have a single chip solution.

1030645[/snapback]

I too, shudder at the atrocities upon vintage electronics. I've seen things you wouldn't believe. I worked at a GoodWill store while I was going to school, and in my particular area, the regional manager/pres./whatever, was so ignorant that when she heard that computers contained PCB's (she thought the toxic chemicals, NOT PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARDS), she decided that GoodWill in her area would no longer accept donations of computers (of course consoles, TV's, stereos and all other electronics which also contain printed cirucit boards wee O.K., after all, she was only told that computers contained PCB's), and if some where left overnight, they had to be immediately disposed of (my job). Not only was I required to throw them all in a dumpster, but I was also required to smash them all with a sledge hammer first! They didn't want dumpster diver's getting the stuff out for free! They wouldn't sell the stuff do to ignorant, misplaced fears, but GOD forbid someone else should be able to use them if they didn't sell or want it themselves! Anyway, I was forced to destroy many a classic computer, disk drives and monitors, including Commodore, Apple and Texas Instruments computers. Luckily an Atari product never had to cross my path there, but other classics were needlessly destroyed. I quit not to long afterwards specifically becuase I didn't want to be the "hang-man" for these vintage electronics. I did manage to sneak away (and save) a few commodore, Texas instruments and Apple things before I left. Of course had I been caught stealing this "worthless garbage" they WOULD have prosecuted me I have no doubt. I can only imagine how many other places and times similiar events took place, destroying our computer heritage. I shudder at the thought, and am on a life long mission to save and restore such systems. But for now, there are still plenty of Atari components available...

Edited March 9, 2006 by Gunstar