Pushing the limits and stunning onlookers

[Gunstar]

What games, out of any or all of Atari's programmable consoles and computers, i.e.; 2600-Jaguar and 400/800-TT/Falcon, do you think really pushed the limits of the given system upto and possibly beyond what the "supposed" or real limits of the machine were?

What were the Atari games over the years that you have shown to users of other brands, to impress them or down right awe them? What machine's did your awe inspired friends use? Did their machine have a counterpart to your game?

 

I'm thinking about writing an article about this to submit to one of the Atari pages that is frequented. After I have gotten some feedback from you, I intend to throw in my two cents on the machines&games that I'm familiar with. I have never owned any of Atari's 16 or 32bit machines except the Lynx (if it's to be considered 16bit, which is arguable, but I believe it to be. Just look at the results). So I'd be leaning even more heavily on your feedback on those machines if they are to be included in the article.

[Gunstar]

Addendum:

 

Many Atari Machines like the 2600 and 8-bit computers have had new games programmed and released for them in some part of the world for over 20 years spanning 3-4 decades, so they have a HUGE base of programs that are known to push the system. But some Atari machines, like the 5200, 7800 and Jaguar didn't have nearly as large a library released for them, so options are much less, maybe they were really never "pushed" to their full potential? But still they had some impressive games. What do you think?

[Tempest]

Personally I'd love to see some comment the source code. I'm cursious as to what the heck he had to do to make it look so good. The graphics were on par with the Atari 400/800 and 5200 versions, only losing a little bit of detail.

 

Tempest

[Gunstar]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tempest:

Personally I'd love to see some comment the source code. I'm cursious as to what the heck he had to do to make it look so good. The graphics were on par with the Atari 400/800 and 5200 versions, only losing a little bit of detail.

 

Tempest

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While I totally agree with that statement, I believe that the 5200/8-bit versions could have been vastly improved from what they were. There are many other "platform" games, at least on the 400/800 that are superior, at least graphically.

[Inky]

Personally I think Solaris and Stargate really pushed the 2600. Solaris was incredibly stunning, and Stargate was virtually indistinguishable from the arcade counterpart.

 

I think that the 7800 had to be Robotron just due to the sheer number of onscreen items with no flicker.

 

The St computers. That's a toughie.

[Mindfield]

On the 2600, while I think Pitfall II was certainly a technological marvel, I also thought Tunnel Runner was extremely innovative. It used CBS' bank switching techniques for enhanced graphics and sound, and it used display list interrupts (or whatever the VCS equivalent to DLIs are) to extremely good effect, making for a colourful playfield. More than that though was the speed at which the 3D maze was drawn. Of course it wasn't actually vector graphics; just plain bitmap walls, but it was done so fast and so well that it made my jaw drop, wondering how such a simple machine could do that.

 

On the 8-bit Atari, hands down, it was the Alternate Reality series. Masterful use of DLIs, amazing atmospheric effects, exceptional sound for an 8-bit, and such a wide scope, to say nothing of fantastic gameplay, made this one an out and out winner in my opinion. It pushed the 8-bit to its very limits, utilizing as many colours as it could on-screen at once through a combination of bitmapped graphics, player/missile graphics, and plenty of display list interrupts. And, of course, it was the first ever functioning example of precalculated 3D texture mapping on a home computer -- it took another 5 years before the next such appeared, and that was Wolfenstein 3D on the PC.

 

On the Atari ST -- well, that's a toughie. There are tons of graphic demos from some legendary crews that just blew me away, but if I had to pick a game, I'd have to say No Second Prize. By far the fastest vector graphics I'd ever seen on the ST, coupled with intense gameplay and exceptional graphics (for vectors). On the other hand, the most innovative I'd have to say was Another World (a.k.a. Out Of This World). That was the most clever use of vector graphics combined with bitmap graphics I'd ever seen, and the first game where I was unable to tell the difference between the cutscenes and gameplay.

 

(Note that I'm not picking anything for the STe/TT/Falcon 'cos of the disparity of the average commercial games)

 

Lynx: Battlewheels. Definitely a CPU-pushing cutting edge game for the platform.

 

Jaguar: Tempest 2000. While ApV had the best atmosphere, T2K had everything else hands down. Fast and furious addictive gameplay, great graphics, tremendous sound, you name it. But then, everyone knows Jeff Minter is a God among yaks...

[Gunstar]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mindfield:

On the 8-bit Atari, hands down, it was the Alternate Reality series. Masterful use of DLIs, amazing atmospheric effects, exceptional sound for an 8-bit, and such a wide scope, to say nothing of fantastic gameplay, made this one an out and out winner in my opinion. It pushed the 8-bit to its very limits, utilizing as many colours as it could on-screen at once through a combination of bitmapped graphics, player/missile graphics, and plenty of display list interrupts. And, of course, it was the first ever functioning example of precalculated 3D texture mapping on a home computer -- it took another 5 years before the next such appeared, and that was Wolfenstein 3D on the PC.

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If I'm not mistaken, A.R. was also the first game to ever incorporate a movie-like introduction. Even that pushed the limits in innovation and effects. With wonderful music (for an 8-bit) and great sing-along.

[Gunstar]

Little known tid-bit (I think it's little known): The Textured walls of Alternate Reality were actually only half a wall; the top half was a mirror image to conserve on processor work load and memory (from the A.R. faq that was once on a now defunct Alternate Reality fan sight).

[hurt]

hehe i have always thought that the intro screen and graffix's in califina games was done very well for the 2600. the music was also in my mind one of the best sound tracks.

[utamav91]

Pete Rose baseball was by far the game that most pushed the 2600 beyond its intended limits. The 7 or 9 different TV-angle type screens, the scoreboard with all the letters and numbers on it...the amazing detail. This is the only game I can think of that rivals a Nintendo game.

 

However, with no disrespect intended, I must politely disagree with the Pitfall 2 fans out there...

 

I've only played Pitfall 2 a few times, but it looks like the same game (which I found a bit boring) to me...jump over a scorpion, swing past the quicksand, jump on the alligator heads, pick up a bar of gold. Repeat. Over and over and over and over and over and over.

 

It was groundbreaking at the time, but is it fun to play?

 

Pitfall is one of those games that I play today and think "what was the big deal again?" Of course, I'm still trying to figure out what the big deal about Adventure is...

 

I agree about the 7800: Robotron really was incredible. Ikari Warriors has incredible graphics too--maybe the best console version of that game ever (anyone ever play the NES version).

[Tempest]

Pitfall II was a big improvement over the original Pitfall because there was actually a storyline and some plot. Also the maze of caverns made sense this time (no mysterious underground tunnels to confuse you) and the game had a definet ending. The graphics and sound are some of the best the 2600 had ever seen, plus the gameplay was excellent for the 2600.

 

They had to keep the same basic priciples (run, jump, collect gold, etc.) otherwise it wouldn't be Pitfall now would it? I find Pitfall II to be a blast to play, but for the ultimate challenge try the Atari 400/800 or 5200 versions. They have the extra level which is huge and complex (I never mapped it succesfully) and introduces a whole bunch of new gameplay elements (moving frogs, deadly ants, rabid bats, island platforms) and a whole new challenge (find the 5 items to get pitfall out of the caverns).

 

I really can't stand the original Pitfall since it is very repetative and plotless, but Pitfall II fixes those problems (in my opinion anyway).

 

Tempest

[zekish]

8 Bit - Drol was an interesting little game. Not sure if it pushed parameters or not but it was like playing a cartoon. Smooth movement, great storyline/creativity, kick ass opening theme, bizarre characters, and a cartoon-like intermission. Fun game.

[Gunstar]

quote:

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Originally posted by Zekish:

8 Bit - Drol was an interesting little game. Not sure if it pushed parameters or not but it was like playing a cartoon. Smooth movement, great storyline/creativity, kick ass opening theme, bizarre characters, and a cartoon-like intermission. Fun game.

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Now that's a game I don't remember ever hearing about, although if it's not from the states, that understandable. When and where was it made? (if you know) What kind of game is it? I'm very interested...

[Tempest]

I had it for the Apple IIe, but not for the Atari 800. I forget who made it but it was one of the major publishing houses (Broderbund maybe?).

 

Tempest

[Mindfield]

D.R.O.L. was published in 1983 by Brøderbund. It didn't really push any envelopes, but it did make exceptional use of mode 8 artifacting, and the animations were indeed extremely smooth. In reminded me a lot of Archer McLean's Dropzone (US Gold), which some exceptionally smooth and nicely done graphics of any action game I'd played. (The C64 version of Dropzone appeared as a cocktail arcade cabinet in a recent PC Pool game whose name escapes me at the moment, but which was also done by Archer McLean)

[zekish]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gunstar:

Now that's a game I don't remember ever hearing about, although if it's not from the states, that understandable. When and where was it made? (if you know) What kind of game is it? I'm very interested...

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Hmmm... it was this game where you are this little cartoon looking guy and you had to save a family (son, daughter, mother) from this weird, three level, side scrolling screen. There where a couple dogs (for lack of a better term) floating around on jetpacks, too. Family pets. Had to save them, too.

 

Anyways, the boy was chasing a flying toy helicopter and the girl a balloon. Mom was tied up in a corner. You basically had to run and float around on your jetpack and pick them up, on whatever level they were on. There were trapdoors that opened to allow you to float from level to level.

 

The things you had to fight, shoot, and avoid were just so amusing. Hairbrushes, floating magnets, knives, daggers, crazy creatures, man eating plants, etc.

 

I'll copy that one for you when I get those disks copied. You'll love it. It's quite fun.

[Gunstar]

That would be great! Strange I never heard of this one though...I was generally enlightened about the good games, especially one from such a prominent publisher. Although I wasn't in to 8-bits until '85 when I got a 130xe instead of an Apple //c (Which turned out, IMHO, to be a fantastic decision), but I did collect the older titles all the way back to the 800. Yes!!! I've done it!!! I needed to do that!!! ...sorry, I just get sick of always seeing "400/800" together. Sorry.

 

"I may be mad, but I'm not cynical"-unknown

[Mindfield]

On AR: Yes, I believe it was the first game to have such a cinematic opening sequence. But then, Philip Price's broad vision sort of put those touches in ever aspect of the game, from the full musical score to the natural world and weather effects (wind, rain, night, day) and all those little things that he added rolled into one mega huge game. His viosionary creativity and his programming prowess both were in abundance every time you played the game.

 

On Pitfall: Agreed. I did play Pitfall! a lot on the VCS, but Pitfall II definitely captured my attention much stronger -- and held it there. I remember being so proud that I'd completed it on the VCS, and then upon repeating that feat on the 8-Bit being awed that there was this whole new level with completely different challenges to surmount. Definitely an attention grabber. Was it fun to play? Hell, yeah. I think that, until Pitfall, there were never any platform games of that scope in existence; just horizontal flick-screen platformers, mostly, and those were usually quite short by comparison. Plus, you had to love the music. :-)

 

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Mindfield ]

[Mindfield]

In case you don't feel like waiting, feel free to grab D.R.O.L. right here.

 

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: Mindfield ]

[Charlie_]

the 2600... Pitfall II. It was a real platform game in (i think) 16K of rom.

 

7800... I don't think anything "pushed" this system. Maybe Tower Topler???

 

Lynx... ElectroCop!!!! going from hallway to hallway was the coolest thing...

 

Jaguar... Missle Command. IMO-One of the 2 retro games that was re-invented very well. (The other being Tempest)

[mos6507]

7800: I think Tower Toppler looks the best, especially the water screen with the parallax scrolling--looks like a Genesis game. But Robotron features the best animation and probably the most effective and least 2600-like TIA sound.

 

I think the 7800 was definitely underutilized. It's a very flexible architecture. I hope we see some hobby games on it in the future.

[Gunstar]

quote:

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Originally posted by Glenn Saunders:

7800: I think Tower Toppler looks the best, especially the water screen with the parallax scrolling--looks like a Genesis game. But Robotron features the best animation and probably the most effective and least 2600-like TIA sound.

 

I think the 7800 was definitely underutilized. It's a very flexible architecture. I hope we see some hobby games on it in the future.

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[Gunstar]

sorry about the lonely quote above, I hit "add reply" by accident. Anyway, I totally agree with you Glenn, that the 7800 was never fully utilized. I feel the same way about the Jaguar. I also agree with your verdict on Tower Toppler. The undersea level still mezmorizes me today; I don't think the Jaguar even has any games with that many levels of Parallax scrolling!

 

I've never had the oportunity to try 7800 Robotron, so I'll take everyone's word for it that it "pushed" the system in some way.

 

On another note, does anyone mind if I quote them, from this discussion? If so e-mail me and let me know not to quote you (moron).

[liquid_sky]

Soundwise I say Pressure Cooker and Pitfall 2 (so I dont sound biased but Pressure Cooker OWNS) were amazing.. I read someplace that Mr. Kitchen submitted the need of a jingle in only hte tones that the Atari didn't hit flat, and thats how he got the song.. I beleive i read this in the little memories section on the Activision classics with Pressure Cooker (volume 3)

 

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: liquid_sky ]