The History Books Need Some Adjusting...

[Shannon]

I think spacecadet pretty much summed it up. Of course we are aware that there are other creative minds involved in projects. But Miyamoto is the driving force behind that creativity and alot of his ideas on gameplay have changed the way we play games.

 

Not to mention the influence that he has had on the nintendo controllers. Although I'm only aware of the 64 and Wii. Not sure if he was involved with the gamecube.

[thomasholzer]

And don't forget, David Crane and gang were working for Atari in the 70s creating groundbreaking arcades long before Miyamoto hit the scene and Nintendo was just a toy company.

Edited July 29, 2006 by thomasholzer

[JB]

Miyamoto is not just the creator of Zelda, Mario and Donkey Kong. Here's an *incomplete* list of the games he's produced (note that it only dates to 1985):

...

And Miyamoto himself admits he's done little more than rubber-stamp most of those games. He only gets personally involved in a small handful of those titles. Anything he's executive producer on he did basically nothing for, and he's very hands-off on most of the titles he's a producer on.

Just as Yamayuchi was executive producer on virtually everything that came from Nintendo during his reign as president, despite having played video games for about five minutes in his entire life.

 

Also: Miyamoto isn't credited as producing ALL of those games. That's a list of everything MobyGames has him credited in. Super Mario Brothers has him as director, under and at least one of those entries is "special thanks"(Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snakes, unsurprisingly). He's not even executive producer on the Mario spinoffs I sampled.

 

I DO admit the vast majority have him as a producer, though(or probably do, I have no intention of checking more than a non-random sampling).

 

 

To dismiss Miyamoto as a "publisher" is to completely miss the point.

Never did that.

I said that if the majority of the people praising Miyamoto were incapable of even recognizing the diffrence between publisher and developer, they DAMN sure didn't read the credits to figure out who was responsible for what. Therefore, they praise Miyamoto because Nintendo said to.

 

Whether he's deserving of that praise or not is a diffrent story.

 

He is the head of EAD at Nintendo. Saying he's only a publisher is no different than saying Nintendo is only a publisher, because he is in charge of all software development at Nintendo. So you're saying the coders get all their ideas themselves? Who do you think is responsible for pretty much everything Nintendo has done on the software side for about the last 20 years?

Miyamoto isn't coming up with everything. He may have final approval, and indeed he hands some of the ideas out, but most of the ideas aren't his.

 

And 20 years? He'd only just barely become something other than Gumpey Yokoi's apprentice in '86.

[Atarifever]

All I know is that each of them are responsible for probably two of the three biggest OMG moments I've experienced in gaming. When I was really young and before we had a Nintendo, me and my brother played a lot of 2600 games. I can barely remember it before the NES was there and I owned the hand-me-down 2600. However, I do remember Pitfall 2. I remember thinking that games would never get larger or more beautiful than that (especially at the waterfall area). Then I remember my brother getting the NES and playing Super Maro Bros. I thought games would never get bigger or more beautiful than that. Later he got Sonic and a Genesis. I thought the same thing. I was half right the last time. Games kept getting bigger though.

 

By the way, anyone ever feel like a Boy and His Blob was the next step in the pitfall series; he just happens to bring his ladder and balloon around with him. I always found the underground areas to have a Pitfall 2 feel to them.

Edited July 29, 2006 by Atarifever

[sega saturn x]

The reason Crane doesn't get the respect you say he deserves is pretty simple, he hasn't done anything noteworthy in years and years so only the hardcore still care at all. His characrter barely survived the years. Miyamotos games had something I personally feel pitfall lacked and that's personality. More over his characters were memorable, so much so nintendo saw fit to use him as a spokes person of sorts. If anyone actually cared about pitfall harry or the blob than maybe the same thing would have happened to him.

Edited July 31, 2006 by sega saturn x

[Mayhem]

Freeway = frogger

Outlaw = uh well outlaw (yes there was an arcade version)

Chopper Command = Defender

 

As part of the Activision article I wrote for Retro Gamer #25, Crane admits as much that a number of games were based on existing concepts. Except Freeway, according to Crane it came out in the US before Frogger as an arcade was exported there. Maybe someone can check the release dates for both games?

[BrianC]

Freeway = frogger

Outlaw = uh well outlaw (yes there was an arcade version)

Chopper Command = Defender

 

Outlaw is not based on the arcade game named Outlaw. The arcade Outlaw is a light gun game. The 2600 Outlaw is based on Taito's Gun Fight arcade game. Gun Fight was distributed by Midway in the US, but Taito designed it.

 

As part of the Activision article I wrote for Retro Gamer #25, Crane admits as much that a number of games were based on existing concepts. Except Freeway, according to Crane it came out in the US before Frogger as an arcade was exported there. Maybe someone can check the release dates for both games?

 

It's most likely that Freeway is based on Space Race. Space Race came out in 1973.

Edited July 29, 2006 by BrianC

[jaybird3rd]

And don't forget, David Crane and gang were working for Atari in the 70s creating groundbreaking arcades long before Miyamoto hit the scene and Nintendo was just a toy company.

That brings up something I've noticed about many of these "greatest game designer" discussions: they tend to focus on console and computer developers without giving enough consideration to the arcades, which is where many of the game concepts that console/computer developers later popularized actually originated.

 

In the arcade field, I'd say one of the most underappreciated game creators/developers has to be Ed Logg (Asteroids, Centipede, Gauntlet, Xybots, Steel Talons, etc). Yes, I know that Gauntlet was derived from Dandy and that Donna Bailey had a hand in Centipede also (some of the design and about half the code, according to Logg), but he still doesn't get enough credit.

[thomasholzer]

Freeway cart label = 1981.....Frogger arcade = 1981 (source: IAM)

 

Outlaw = direct copy of an arcade game called Gunslinger (mentioned by David Crane in Retro gamer issue 12)

 

Chopper Command = written by Bob Whitehead anyway.

Edited July 29, 2006 by thomasholzer

[liveinabin]

David Crane is very important in the history of videogaming from an American perspective (and I do love most of his games), but from a world view, his contribution is diminished.

[Atariboy2600]

David Crane if more fame then any Japanese programer in three words U.S.A. everybody here in the US know David and not many know Miyamoto or anyone out side of the US.

 

USA

USA

USA

[dwh]

I also wanted to mention that the whole at arcade and home vidio game market was not created but made strong by Atari;any other company afterwards was just working off the business model made by Bushnell, even after the crash.

[Malc74]

In the arcade field, I'd say one of the most underappreciated game creators/developers has to be Ed Logg (Asteroids, Centipede, Gauntlet, Xybots, Steel Talons, etc). Yes, I know that Gauntlet was derived from Dandy and that Donna Bailey had a hand in Centipede also (some of the design and about half the code, according to Logg), but he still doesn't get enough credit.

 

Couldn't agree more. IMO Ed Logg is considerably more underappreciated than David Crane.

[Shannon]

Outlaw is not based on the arcade game named Outlaw. The arcade Outlaw is a light gun game. The 2600 Outlaw is based on Taito's Gun Fight arcade game. Gun Fight was distributed by Midway in the US, but Taito designed it.

Regardless the point being made was that no they were not creative in regards to gameplay, alot of their titles were based on previous arcade titles. Or at least similar enough to not qualify as original. In fact if you look at alot of their earlier titles you will notice that the gameplay is seriously influenced by the limitations of the 2600. Now technically they were very creative.

 

Chopper Command = written by Bob Whitehead anyway.

Again chopper command was mentioned to refute the originality attributed to ACTIVISION in an earlier post.

[chrisbid]

i think the early programmer/designers are neglected in general. people often throw away anything before the nes as meaningless.

 

 

and about the whole work ethic tirade between american and japanese companies, japanese companies commit themselves to their employees - often for life, american companies treat employees like dirty underwear. work ethic isnt a cultural equation, its deals more with how well employees are treated within a company

[JB]

i think the early programmer/designers are neglected in general. people often throw away anything before the nes as meaningless.

 

 

and about the whole work ethic tirade between american and japanese companies, japanese companies commit themselves to their employees - often for life, american companies treat employees like dirty underwear. work ethic isnt a cultural equation, its deals more with how well employees are treated within a company

Personally, I'd argue the entire INDUSTRY pre-NES is neglected, or even forgotten outright.

Remember how the N64 was the first system with 4-player capability out of the box, as well as the first system with analog joysticks?

 

The entire pre-NES era has been reduced, in the minds of most people, to "The 2600." Usually with ", but it sucked" attached to the end.

PacMan? An Atari creation. Space Invaders? Atari's baby. Donkey Kong? Atari.

 

 

 

Post-NES, I think a LOT more people deserve credit than get it.

 

Pegging a game on one person is probably futile in the modern era, but it certainly doesn't hurt to identify a developer.

 

As far as giving credit goes, I actually liked Sega's plethora of sub-studios, even if it made for messy packaging and created the illusion that Sega wasn't developing much of their own software anymore. Smilebit, Sonic Team, and so on all represented distinct creative groups.

It really seems a lot more fair than picking one person out and saying "He did this."

[nester]

Miyamato and David Crane again. Didn't anyone else ever make games? My problem with David Crane is that he really didn't make that many classic games. Sure he made Pitfall, but he also worked on lackluster games like Laser Blast and Canyon Bomber. They have a certain charm, but they're not exactly classics. In spite of this, though, he's just about the only Atari developer that I ever hear about. If anything, they're both talked about too much.

[supercat]

Miyamato and David Crane again. Didn't anyone else ever make games? My problem with David Crane is that he really didn't make that many classic games. Sure he made Pitfall, but he also worked on lackluster games like Laser Blast and Canyon Bomber. They have a certain charm, but they're not exactly classics. In spite of this, though, he's just about the only Atari developer that I ever hear about. If anything, they're both talked about too much.

 

I like Warren Robinett, myself. I think his most impressive accomplishment, though, is generally overlooked or even derided. True, one can do even less with Basic Programming than with an unexpanded Sinclair ZX-80, but in some ways it was actually more impressive than other micros of the time. When Microsoft appeared with CodeView it was hailed as revolutionary, but Basic Programming offered much the same thing almost a decade earlier. Too bad the SARA chip hadn't yet been invented or Basic Programming might have been powerful enough to actually code some playable (albeit simple) games.

[pocketmego]

Wow, its hard to know where to jump in on this thread.

 

I fully admit that I love Chopper Command, BECAUSE it plays better than Atari's Defender. But, what makes it really special is that it has the freedom to look nicer and have its own distinctive game mechanics, because it ISN'T Defender as well.

 

I also agree with the poster who mentioned Sid Meier is overated. I didn't even know who he was before Sid Meier's Pirates came out and I realized he was the same guy who made civilization. Back in the days of my C64, that game was strictly called Pirates. Or among enthuisiasts of that particular style of game it was called, "Not as Good as Seven Cities of Gold."

 

Myamoto's work as a producer is minimalistic and he would never take credit of his team workers in that huge list of games. He only ever refers to his own actual game creations when talking about his own work. mario, Zelda, Pikman.

 

No one, or at least I wasn't, refuting that he is a great man. actually I admire him because every interview I've ever read with the made paints hima s a very kind and good man. He loves his work and his co-workers and you can't ignore that aspect of his personality.

 

There are many other people who are terribly over-looked in the histrory of games. i mentioned David Crane originally because as far as a I am concerned it is HE and not Myamoto who is the father of the multi-screen side scroller. I also do not believe that the side scroller represented the end of random video game playing. It was simply the hot trend of the era, much as Space Invader style gaming followed the trend of that particular mega-hit.

 

Freeway and Frogger came out at virtually the same time as someone stated and I wish he had kept the Human and blood stains in it, because it makes Freeway much more challenging.

 

Eugene Jarvis and Ed loog should both be in Hall of Fames somehwere along with Bushnell and the guy who invented Space war. Until this hobby gaines some legitimacy (40 years strong and still treated like EC Comics), they will never get the honor they deserve. The Video Game community desperately needs a respectable Lifetime achievement award with a non-G4-Samuel L. Jackson style award ceremony to give it some better press.

 

Activision's early strength was to make better versions of Atari games and that is a reality.

 

-Ray

[BrianC]

Outlaw is not based on the arcade game named Outlaw. The arcade Outlaw is a light gun game. The 2600 Outlaw is based on Taito's Gun Fight arcade game. Gun Fight was distributed by Midway in the US, but Taito designed it.

Regardless the point being made was that no they were not creative in regards to gameplay, alot of their titles were based on previous arcade titles. Or at least similar enough to not qualify as original. In fact if you look at alot of their earlier titles you will notice that the gameplay is seriously influenced by the limitations of the 2600. Now technically they were very creative.

 

Huh? I just corrected an error. I wasn't disputing your point.

[Student Driver]

Eugene Jarvis and Ed loog should both be in Hall of Fames somehwere along with Bushnell and the guy who invented Space war. Until this hobby gaines some legitimacy (40 years strong and still treated like EC Comics), they will never get the honor they deserve. The Video Game community desperately needs a respectable Lifetime achievement award with a non-G4-Samuel L. Jackson style award ceremony to give it some better press.

 

This would be a great side thread... who belongs in a video/computer game hall of fame? David Crane vs. Shigeru Miyamoto is interesting but unfair to both parties. Better to honor both (and other deserving people) than bash them.

[Paranoid]

God I hope this industry never gains "legitimacy" and Hollywood style red-carpet awards.

[Shannon]

Yeah Eugene Jarvis came to mind earlier today.

[Atariboy2600]

Miyamato, David Crane? Give Me Lord British

 

[Dave Farquhar]

Miyamato and David Crane again. Didn't anyone else ever make games? My problem with David Crane is that he really didn't make that many classic games. Sure he made Pitfall, but he also worked on lackluster games like Laser Blast and Canyon Bomber. They have a certain charm, but they're not exactly classics. In spite of this, though, he's just about the only Atari developer that I ever hear about. If anything, they're both talked about too much.

 

What about Ghostbusters? I wore out the joysticks on my C-64 playing that when I was a kid. Little Computer People is a forgotten classic today too. I wouldn't call Crane's pre-Pitfall 2600 games lackluster though--by today's standards they're simple, but at the time they were pushing the hardware in ways nobody had done before.

 

Pitfall Harry had less personality and character development than Mario, yes, but look at the platforms they ran on. Just getting multiple colors onto Pitfall Harry was an accomplishment.

 

As far as Sid Meier... In computer circles he was famous before Pirates!, but mostly for his simulation-themed games like Silent Service and F-15 Strike Eagle. Overrated, yes, but so was Babe Ruth. But the "not as good as Seven Cities of Gold" comment brings us to...

 

Dan Bunten. He wrote Seven Cities of Gold and M.U.L.E. The problem is he was so far ahead of his time. M.U.L.E. was a 4-player game in the early 1980s. The rest of his titles were way out ahead of the curve too. I seem to remember reading that Bunten wanted to do Civilization in the mid-1980s, before computers powerful enough to do it were common. He was working on Global Conquest when Meier did the original Civilization.

 

Bunten led a very complex life, undergoing a sex-change operation in the early 1990s among other things, and died young, at 49. I sure would like to know what Danielle Berry (the name Bunten used after the change) would have made with ubiquitous high-speed Internet available at her disposal.

 

Bunten gets my vote as the most underrated developer. Playing a Bunten game, to me, is like listening to a Velvet Underground record. The Velvet Underground's flaw was being so far ahead of its time. Listen to that band, and it's hard to believe their first record came out in 1968. The world just wasn't ready for them yet. Bunten was the same way--he just managed to score a hit with Seven Cities of Gold somehow. And even then he was breaking new ground, because entertainment software that taught history was a new concept in 1984.